Panzer III & IV Revisited

[Pinky]

To me it looks like the cupola was moved to the rear and the rear turret plate was made flatter , removing the center bump that the D had .

Right.  Spielberger has some photos of a stripped down turret which show the changes.

And  IRC the turret side door opening was the same size for  both the early ( single ) and late ( double ) door , its an optical allusion that makes them look to be different in size    Hopefully we get early war versions of both the III and IV .

The opening for the single door was a different shape.

[H0ffmn]

The rear plate of the Ausf E was one piece,with the new cupola. I went and looked it up. I  thought that the turret design was changed on the Ausf. F. My bad!!

[Pinky]

The rear plate of the Ausf E was one piece,with the new cupola. I went and looked it up. I  thought that the turret design was changed on the Ausf. F. My bad!!

Well we all got some details confused.  It's not surprising - like the Sherman, there are a lot of subtle changes through the versions.

[Pinky]

A picture tells a thousand words...

Ausf D


Ausf E:

[Pinky]

Ausf E turret details:


Turret hatch details:

[H0ffmn]

Rubicon,
  Are you going to post your plans for
 your revised PanzerIII??

RE: Panzer IV... just some thoughts

1. Will start with Panzer IV Ausf E as the differences between the E and F (and thereafter) are minor.

2. The Asuf E will take care of early war into Poland and Norway (206 produced / Oct 40 to Apr 41).

3. Differences with Ausf D is just too many to be included (248 produced / Oct 39 to Oct 40).

4. Ausf F1 (471 produced / Apr 41 to Mar 42).

5. Ausf F2 - temporary designation with 7.5cm KwK40 L/43 main gun, later renamed as Ausf G.

6. Ausf G with 7.5cm KwK40 L/48 gun (1,927 produced / Mar 42 to June 43).

7. Ausf H (2,324 produced / Jun 43 to Feb 44).

8. Should be able to do a single kit to include Ausf E / F1 / G / H.

9. Will include improved Schürzen design.

10. Will probably include crew.

11. Will include single piece track design with front track details (no rear track detail due to mould limitation).

12. Ausf J, probably a separate kit because of major design differences (3,160 produced / Feb 44 to Apr 45).

Any comments?

[Rubicon Models]

Are you going to post your plans for your revised Panzer III??

We have decided to first drawn out a criteria for Panzer IV first as it seems to be less complicated than the Panzer III.
Panzer III will come later...

[Rubicon Models]

Before further discussions on our Panzer IV revision project, think we should let you know the references we are using (besides online references).
Most referenced publications are:

PzKpfw IV in action - Squadron/Signal Publications, Armor No 12, by Bruce Culver

Panzerkampfwagen IV and its variants 1935-1945, Book 2 - Schiffer Military History, by Walter Spielberger, Hilary Doyle, Thomas Jentz

plus a few others.

Also ordered Panzer Tracts No 4-3 Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H and Ausf J, 1943 to 1945 - Hilary Doyle, Lukas Friedli, Thomas Jentz
but not delivered yet.

[Rubicon Models]

This is a comparison diagram between the Panzer IV Ausf D and Ausf E.
Red circles on the Ausf E marked the differences.



Comments?

[Pinky]

Same comments as before.  It should be possible to provide the parts for the Ausf D as well as the Ausf E, through to the early Ausf G, if you don't try to include Schurzen.

[Rubicon Models]

Same comments as before.  It should be possible to provide the parts for the Ausf D as well as the Ausf E, through to the early Ausf G, if you don't try to include Schurzen.

Even without the Schurzen, you need a new sets of sprocket and road wheels, a new turret with cupola, frontal applique armour, the rear exhaust...

From a design perspective, the two variants are very similar, but the subtle differences are so obvious, you need a lot of small parts to make it work.  That will defeat our basic principle of easy-to-assemble as a wargamer kit.  Of course, for modelers, that's another story.

There are always ways to make this happen; just need more time to digest all the information before we proceed to do the 3D drawings.

One possible solution is to split the Panzer IV into 3 products with two common sprues and a third specialist sprue; thus:
1) Panzer IV Ausf D & E
2) Panzer IV Ausf F / G / H
3) Panzer IV Ausf J

Any comments?

[Pinky]

I see the point.  I'm not sure an Ausf D/E kit would be a great idea.  Maybe the Ausf D isn't worth trying to include.  It would mean you didn't have an early Blitzkrieg era Panzer IV variant, but arguably that's not a big deal.  The alternative would be to take a few shortcuts.  You've done that before (like the M10/M36). 

[ripley]

Some early  Es had D style Drive sprockets , and some late  Ds  in Africa got the add on side and front armor as well as the rear stowage box . So a combo late D / early E kit would use E running gear . And need - D/E transmission plate , D/E driver - MG plate ,  D/E turret roof & cupolas . Both versions had a smoke candle box sometime  mounted over the exhausts , you don't have to include it . You could also add the two different rear turret plates if you brain stormed it . Really not too many extra pieces compared to the late IVs with side skirts , I think the tricky part will be making it easy to assemble for gamers   

[H0ffmn]

 For the Ausf D., the only major component would be the turret. You've included alternate turrets before with your T-34, M4A3 and Crusader.
The applique armor was also used on upgraded  Ausf D's.
The rear exhaust is the same,the smoke discharges, which you have circled are different, one is armored and the one you show on the Ausf D isn't.
The cupolas are different, but are the same ones that you would make for your Panzer IIIs when you upgrade it.
I think you should make an early war Panzer III and Panzer IVs, but I would be happy with just the upgraded/reworked kits.It wouldn't take much work to backdate/scratchbuild parts to
turn an Ausf F to an Ausf E

[Swamprat33]

I am really wanting to get hold of a decent Panzer IV ausf J.
I am painting up a platoon of  panzer IV ausf H for a mate and i was tempted to get another to convert but i am very happy to wait if you are planning to do one.
Tim