M10/M36 Tank Destroyer - Project CLOSED!

[Rubicon Models]

M10/M36 Tank Destroyer

Once again, a US vehicle... a quick quote from Wikipedia...

Background History of the M10 / M36 Tank Destroyer

The M10 Tank Destroyer (christened the "Wolverine" by the British) was a WW2 US tank destroyer based on the chassis of the M4 Sherman tank fitted with the 3-inch (76.2 mm) M7 Gun.  It was numerically the most important US tank destroyer of WW2 and combined a reasonably potent anti-tank weapon with a turreted platform.  Despite the introduction of more-powerful types as replacements, it remained in service until the end of the war.  A total of 6,706 were built between 1942 & 1943.

The British converted some M10s to use their successful 17-pounder (76 mm) anti-tank gun, which they designated as "17pdr SP Achilles".  The turret needed modification to take the longer gun.  The 17-pounder was of a similar bore, but longer and using a larger propellant charge had far superior armor penetration capability.  It was used by the British, Canadian, and Polish armies in Italy and northwest Europe.  About 1,110 were built.

The M36 Tank Destroyer (nickname "Jackson") was essentially an up-gunned M10 tank destroyer, replacing the former's 3 inch (76.2mm) M7 Gun with a powerful 90mm gun.

The M36 first served in combat in Europe in September 1944, where it proved to be a match for any of the tanks being fielded by the Germans.  About 1,400 M36s were produced during the war.  The need for 90 mm gunned tank destroyers was so urgent that, during October to December 1944, 187 conversions of standard M4A3 hulls were produced; these vehicles, designated M36B1, were rushed to the European Theater of Operations and used in combat alongside standard M36s.

The M36 also saw use in the Korean War, able to defeat any of the Soviet tanks used in that conflict.  Some were supplied to the Koreans as part of the Military Assistance Program and served for years, as did re-engined examples found in Yugoslavia, which operated into the 1990s.  Two remained in service with the Republic of China Army at least to 2001.



Objective of our 1/56 plastic kit will be as follow:

- a 3 sprue plastic kit to build either a M10 / M36 or a 17pdr SP Achilles
- a common M4A3 chassis with two transmission cover options
- three interchangeable turrets – M10 / 17pdr SP / M36
- simplified interior for all turrets (gun details, ammo rack, etc)
- minor detail changes for different variants (head lights, gun travel lock, etc)
- the M36 turret can be used with our M4A3 kit (280012) to become a M36B1

[Rubicon Models]

This project is finally realized because this had been a "Proposed Project".  The forum link is here: http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=86.0

(1) M10 Wolverine / 17pdr SP Achilles    39 (39%)
(2) M10 Wolverine / M36 Jackson           12 (12%)
(3) M36 Jackson /17pdr SP Achilles         4 (4%)
(4) M18 Hellcat                                       45 (45%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Even though the M18 had a majority of 45 votes in a single category, the M10/M36/Achilles combined category has 55 votes.

After doing research on both history and game related matters, we have decided to start the M10/M36/Achilles project first.  That doesn't mean we are not doing the M18 Hellcat... may be at a later date!

[elias.tibbs]

Do you think you can find a way of putting the MMG in the hull to make an M36B2 as well?


Looks really good, the fact that the m36 turret fits the M4 chassis is a good selling point.

As a mainly US player, I'm looking forward to this!

[Rubicon Models]

Do you think you can find a way of putting the MMG in the hull to make an M36B2 as well?

The M36B2 is based on the M4A2 chassis, which is different from the M10's M4A3 chassis design.  Even if we can "fake" it by adding a separate MG piece added to the front, because there is a thickness requirement for each part during the mould injection process, the ending result will not look natural.  It might be easier for you to kit bashing it instead.

[elias.tibbs]

Makes sense, didn't realise it used a different chassis. It shouldn't be too hard to kit bash ^_^

[Pinky]

This looks like it will be a great kit - another excellent choice of subject.  Some comments on the prototype drawings:

M10

- should be able to mount a .50 cal on the turret; this appeared on most M10s in US service
- seems to have an extra siren on the right side of the glacis; there should only be one on the left

Achilles

- note that the Achilles is actually a late model M10, fitted with a 17 pdr.  So if you designed it so that the 3 inch gun also fits in this turret (which basically means providing another mantlet - unless the early version fits the late type turret), you'd be able to offer an additional version.
- appears to have 2 sirens instead of proper headlights
- I've never seen that armour plate on the glacis and suggest you omit it
- most Achilles seem to have had the step on the transmission housing (maybe add that to the late version cast transmission housing as well?)

M36
- should have the same headlights and siren as the M10
- note that the arrangement of the filler caps on the engine deck was different to the M10's (on the M10 they are grouped near the turret; on the M36 they are in a line).  The M36 also had larger engine bay doors than the M10.  This is because the M10 and the M36 had different engines.  If the hull is the same as the M10's, then it's technically an M36B2 (724 of these were built on M10 hulls when the supply of M10A1 hulls dried up).  See the diagrams below.  Contrary to Spinfire's post, the M36B2 did not have a hull machine gun.

[ripley]

Actually some Achilles did have the extra armor .  There was a discussion on Armorama or Missing-Lynx a while ago when the Tamiya 1/48 scale Achilles was reviewed . The kit  comes with the extra front hull armor . Someone posted war time  pictures of this modification in combat . Never say never I guess . But very few got it as they were supposed to kill tanks from a distance , not up close , hence their thin armor to start with .

[Rubicon Models]

That particular "extra amour" is optional.  So can be mounted in place or replace with normal headlights.  Don't think that's an issue here!

[Pinky]

That particular "extra amour" is optional.  So can be mounted in place or replace with normal headlights.  Don't think that's an issue here!

My point is that if there was a choice between including that on the sprue and (say) providing more interior turret detail, I'd ditch the armour plate...

[Rubicon Models]

This project is still in the design phase, will prepare 3d prototyping soon!  Everything you see here is flexible and subjected to change, even after 3d prototyping.  The most important objective is to keep the part count under 3 sprues and still keep the 3 turrets, which is already a challenge itself!

[Pinky]

Actually some Achilles did have the extra armor .  There was a discussion on Armorama or Missing-Lynx a while ago when the Tamiya 1/48 scale Achilles was reviewed . The kit  comes with the extra front hull armor . Someone posted war time  pictures of this modification in combat . Never say never I guess . But very few got it as they were supposed to kill tanks from a distance , not up close , hence their thin armor to start with .

I found this photo of an early Achilles, which is the only M10-related vehicle I've ever seen with what looks like applique armour.  Every reference I have on the M10 says that the applique armour kit (for which the large bolts on the M10 hull were intended) was never produced, so this may well be a field modification (it's hard to imagine armour this thin this making much difference!). 

[Rubicon Models]

From another forum by Pinky (?):

Most M36s were built on existing M10A1 hulls, which had a Ford petrol engine (the same as the M3A3). The placement of the filler caps on the engine deck was different from the M10, as was the engine access hatch (which was larger on the M10A1/M36). See the diagrams below. 1400 M36s were converted from M10A1s. When the supply of M10A1 hulls ran out, about 700 M36s were built on the basic M10 (diesel-engined) hull, and these were designated M36B2. The M36 also had a gun travel lock rather than the simple crutch on the M10.

It will be interesting to see how Rubicon deal with these details.

What if we tell you there are TWO rear engine top plates that you can swap?  Will that answer your question? 

This basically will add our variants total to SEVEN:

M10 - Diesel engine ~5000 vehicles
M10A1 - M4A3 chassis, Ford GAA gasoline engine ~1700 vehicles
17pdr SP IC - Diesel engine
17dpr SP IIC - Gasoline engine ~1100 vehicles (both version combined)
M36 - M4A3 chassis, Ford GAA gasoline engine ~1298 vehicles
M36B1 - on Medium Tank M4A3 hull and chassis ~187 vehicles
M36B2 - M4A2 chassis, GM 6046 diesel engine ~287 vehicles

Correct?

[Pinky]

An optional engine deck would deal with the main difference.  The M10 and M10A1 also had different exhausts - the M10A1/M36 had the same exhaust as the M4A3, and later vehicles had the rectangular vent that you've included on your M4A3 kit (although it's not entirely accurate).

The M10A1 did not see active service in its original guise.   There was a decision to only send the diesel-engined M10 overseas, even thought the M10A1 was regarded as technically superior.  The M10A1s were kept in the US for training, then converted into M36s (see below).  So I query whether there's any value in mentioning this version as an option in your kit.

Note that the first production version of the M10 had improvised turret counterweights - basically just rectangular slabs.  I wouldn't bother with this version, as they were quickly rebuilt (and looked horrible!).

Your seven versions would be:

M10 - early production (wedge-shaped turret counterweights) - 2850 built (including M10A1s).
M10 - late production (enlarged turret and 'duckbill' shaped turret counterweights) - 3200 built (including M10A1s)
Achilles 1c - 17 pdr conversion utilising the early M10 turret (few were converted and most sources say this version didn't see service, but some may have.  Also, some field workshop conversions may have used the early production M10).
Achilles IIc - 17 pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret (i.e. with 'duckbill' counterweights) - 1017 converted.  Not built on the M10A1; some sources say they were, but this must be incorrect (see the comment above about deployment of M10A1s).  Remember also that the British didn't get any M4A3s, so it would have made no sense for them to use M10A1s.
M36 - converted from M10A1s (either altered on the assembly line or returned from the field to be converted - a total of 1413 built.
M36B1 - M36 turret installed on M4A3(W) hull because of the sudden realisation that the M10 was inadequate and there weren't enough M36s - 187 built.
M36B2 - M36 built on M10 hull when the supply of M10A1 hulls ran out - 724 built, using re-conditioned M10 hulls.

One final point I've noticed - your M36 prototype appears to have the post-war single-baffle muzzle brake (although it might just be the angle of the drawing).  The WW2 version had a double baffle muzzle brake and no fume extractor.  However, most WW2 M36s don't seem to have had a muzzle brake (and none had a fume extractor).

[Rubicon Models]

This is just an exploration of what we can do.  To keep the maximum variants on 3 sprues, we probably will not do the different exhausts - will only keep the M4A3 version.  As you have already stated, the most useful for historical and gaming use would be:

M10 (late production) - enlarged turret with duckbill shaped counterweight (including M10A1s)
Achilles IIc - 17pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret with a different shaped counterweight
M36 - converted from M10A1s
M36B1 - the M36 turret is designed to fit onto our M4A3 kit
M36B2 - M36 using M10 hull

All drawings are done and is now waiting for 3D prototyping.  Hopefully will see some samples within the next two weeks!

As for the M36 muzzle brake, we needed to double check with our existing references.  As you mentioned in your comment, our initial design do not have a muzzle brake, but was added later after comparing notes at our production meeting.

[Pinky]

This is just an exploration of what we can do.  To keep the maximum variants on 3 sprues, we probably will not do the different exhausts - will only keep the M4A3 version.

Maybe you can fudge that  - there was a different type of exhaust vent for the diesel engine, which could cover up the rear exhausts and avoid having to modify your existing M4A3 hull pieces.

As you have already stated, the most useful for historical and gaming use would be:

M10 (late production) - enlarged turret with duckbill shaped counterweight (including M10A1s)
Achilles IIc - 17pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret with a different shaped counterweight
M36 - converted from M10A1s
M36B1 - the M36 turret is designed to fit onto our M4A3 kit
M36B2 - M36 using M10 hull

So no early M10 version at all?  That does cut it down to two turrets, which is probably more practical.  The Achilles would simply require a different gun and revised mantlet (as the Achilles conversion included a 'collar' and revised sight, as shown on your drawing).  You can probably fudge most of the interior stowage differences between the M10 and the Achilles - they both had 6 rounds stowed down the rear turret wall, so maybe you just need to include optional gun breeches.

As for the M36 muzzle brake, we needed to double check with our existing references.  As you mentioned in your comment, our initial design do not have a muzzle brake, but was added later after comparing notes at our production meeting.

The single baffle muzzle brake and fume extractor were introduced as part of a post-war refurbishment.  This version saw acton with the Republic of Korea in the Korean War.  I rather like the 90mm gun with a muzzle brake - it looks more impressive.