Tracks' M4 Medium tank thread

[ripley]

Maybe they can give us 2 upper hulls sort of like they did in the SU-122 / 85 kit . As you say a non direct vision with early wheels is rather rare . And if they don't " fix " it , we can still build a mid and keep the early wheels for a future build . Does suck though if your an early war gamer 

[Tracks]

The M3 Bogie Truck assembly with the overhead roller was used on M3 Medium (AKA Lee/Grant), early M7 Priest, and on some of the early M4 Medium tanks and on some of the early M4A1 Medium tanks (AKA Shermans). However, I agree that the M3 Bogie Truck was mostly used on "Shermans" with the Direct Vision Slots, and it would be uncommon (but not impossible) for an M4 or M4A1 to have the M3 Bogie Truck and no Direct Vision Slots.

That being said, I'm excited to see the M3 Bogie Truck because 1) it gives us another option for our M4 Medium Tanks, and 2) it brings us one step closer to Rubicon making an M3 Medium Tank (Lee/Grant) plastic model kit. If you ask me, I think an M3Lee/Grant Rubicon Models kit will sell much better than the SdKfz 173 Jagdpanther they are planning to release soon.



Note the details of the M3 Bogie Trucks. Very interesting and useful photo.

History Tab
Did you know that the M4A1 Medium Tanks that fought at Alamein had originally been given to the US 1st Armored Division? However, things changed when the first shipment of M4A1 Medium Tanks sent to Egypt were lost enroute because the cargo ships carrying them were sunk. As a result, the US 1st Armored Division gave up their brand new M4A1s as replacements for the British. As a result, when the US 1st Armored fought in Tunisia, they were equipped with a mix of M3 Medium and M4A1 Medium tanks.

[Tracks]

Maybe they can give us 2 upper hulls sort of like they did in the SU-122 / 85 kit.

Not sure how practical that will be, but maybe Rubicon Models can think of some cleaver way to incorporate both versions 1) M4A1 with Direct Vision Slots, and 2) the elimination of the Direct Vision Slots.

I wonder how easy or difficult it would be to have that just as a part to add to the hull of the M4A1.

[ripley]

I'm sure the driver's hood area could be molded as a separate drop in  piece , but there's going to be mold and join lines that will need to be filled and sanded to get the curve and finish of the cast hull . So its not going to be  an out of the box  perfectly detailed M4A1 . Now if the front plate was flat , like on the M4 , it would be easy . And as these kits are for both gamers and modellers ,( of a variety of skills ) I'm sure Rubicon want to make it as perfect as possible right oob . So no need to putty and designing that is going to tough if not impossible IMO

[Pinky]

History Tab
Did you know that the M4A1 Medium Tanks that fought at Alamein had originally been given to the US 1st Armored Division? However, things changed when the first shipment of M4A1 Medium Tanks sent to Egypt were lost enroute because the cargo ships carrying them were sunk. As a result, the US 1st Armored Division gave up their brand new M4A1s as replacements for the British. As a result, when the US 1st Armored fought in Tunisia, they were equipped with a mix of M3 Medium and M4A1 Medium tanks.

318 M4A1s and M4A2s were sent to the British; one ship was sunk so 52 were diverted from US units.

[H0ffmn]

[And if they don't " fix " it , we can still build a mid and keep the early wheels for a future build . Does suck though if your an early war gamer 
[/quote]
  To save the early suspension /track/wheel set  for a future build would probably  only be useful if they were to make a M-7 Priest, As I would think that if Rubicon were to make a M-3 Lee/Grant, that the kit would include a set of the correct suspension. I would not like to see Rubicon start selling different components so you would have to buy two complete kits to make a certain , say early version , of Sherman tank

[ripley]

I would use the early wheel set to convert a M4 . Much easier to add scratch built  direct vision bits to the flat front plate of a M4 than mess around with the A1's curves IMO .  Hopefully we'll get a M4A1 direct vision from Rubicon at some point , and  I'm thinking  a second hull in the kit should be a no brainer , but Rubicon's decision to add it or not is not up to me , They might have reasons not to or they  do plan that version at some point but not now . We'll just have to wait

[Pinky]

I hope Rubicon go back to the drawing board on this.  Otherwise it will be like ESCI's infamous 1/72 scale M4A1, which had the large hatch hull and the 75mm turret.  It turns out a few of these were built (and virtually all of them seem to have been converted into DD tanks), but it was very much a one-off version.  Having gone to all the trouble of putting out a plastic M4A1, it would be sad if it only depicted a weird hybrid.  I would have thought there was room on the sprues for 2 different hulls (one with direct vision ports and one without), but if the M3-style bogies are going to be included (and I think most of us want them) that means including 2 sets of tracks as well.  That's probably pushing it. 

Separately, I was looking at the photo Tracks put up.  I'd never seen it before, and it is very interesting.  It struck me how archaic the VVSS looks - its 19th century rolling-stock ancestry is very apparent in all those rounded, cast surfaces.  But it's also apparent how easy it was to replace, compared to German suspension units.  The photo also emphasises what nice lines the M4A1 hull had compared to the welded hull Shermans.

[ultravanillasmurf]

I hope Rubicon are reading this, we have now two threads on the M4A1, this one and the work in progress one.

What is interesting is the sprue content.

It has been stated that the kit only contains the M3 style running gear. Now the M4 kit contains two upper hulls (the hybrid only one though) and one set of running gear. So it is possible that it could have both hull types. A large hatch one (like the M4A2) would be pointless with the M3 running gear.

Of course this could just be wishful thinking.

[Pinky]

It has been stated that the kit only contains the M3 style running gear. Now the M4 kit contains two upper hulls (the hybrid only one though) and one set of running gear. So it is possible that it could have both hull types. A large hatch one (like the M4A2) would be pointless with the M3 running gear.

Yes, the M4A1 (75mm) kit could include 2 hulls, just like the M4 and M4A2 (75mm) kits.  I'm sure there will be a separate kit of the M4A1 (76mm) - possibly with HVSS running gear and/or extended end connectors - so that's the large hatch hull taken care of.  But an M4A1 (75mm) kit with both the early and mid-production hulls would also need M4 running gear as well as the M3 running gear, for the reasons explained.   

[ultravanillasmurf]

Yes, true. I have one M4 set of running gear from the M4A3 that will end up on the M4A1 as has been shown.

[Tracks]

I have finished assembling and painting my M36B1. All that is needed is add the crew members to the turret.

Inspired by the assembled kit shown on Rubicon Models' site (see below), I didn't give it any thought about the muzzle break. You get a choice of two different muzzle breaks, and I was only focused on the type used during WW2.



However, I recently discovered that many sources suggest that the muzzle break was rarely used on the M36B1 for one reason or another, and the few actual WW2 combat photos I'm able to find confirms this fact. Yes, there are a few pictures showing the muzzle break, and there is a nice picture of a M36B1 with the muzzle break in "US Tank Destroyers" by Squadron Signal, and this picture is in almost all my books that has information about the M36B1, but the photo captions says, "The M36B1 was classified as a Substitute Standard and proved to be an easy way to quickly get additional 90mm guns into the European theater. The 90mm gun could be fitted with a muzzle brake, but this was rarely seen during the war due to the time involved in fitting it and its related equipment." (p.19, US Tank Destroyers, Squadron Signal)

Even though I have finished my M36B1 model (except for the crew), I am pondering the idea of making a modification to the gun's muzzle. Since it was not common for the M36B1 to have the muzzle break, I am thinking of removing it. In fact, I know I will. It shouldn't be all that difficult to make this modification, but has anyone else preformed this procedure on their M36B1 model?

[ripley]

Most of the war photos of the B1 in Europe show no muzzle break . I say most because some are probably post war , but the  combat photos , where the crew are manning the MG and the tank is covered in maximum stowage show none . Usually with counter weight on the end , but some times none and the threads are visible . Even the official US War Department photos of the B1 show no muzzle break . You might want to check out the Tankograd book if your going to build more than one

[Pinky]

I don't have my references to hand, but I thought the M36B1 lacked the muzzle brake.  It wasn't even fitted to the 'standard' M36 until late in the production run, as they were in short supply.  I don't recall seeing any photos of M36B1s with muzzle brakes, at least during WW2 (a lot of modifications were made to the M36 series after the war, including fitting muzzle brakes).

Your M36B1 looks very nice.  I prefer US vehicles with lots of stowage, but your understated weathering and highlighting is very attractive.  It's too late, I know, but another common feature of M36B1s was extended end connectors on the tracks, to offset the weight of the turret.  The wider tracks also look better, as it's otherwise quite a tall, narrow vehicle.

[Tracks]

You might want to check out the Tankograd book if your going to build more than one

I'm on it.

Your M36B1 looks very nice.  I prefer US vehicles with lots of stowage, but your understated weathering and highlighting is very attractive.  It's too late, I know, but another common feature of M36B1s was extended end connectors on the tracks, to offset the weight of the turret.  The wider tracks also look better, as it's otherwise quite a tall, narrow vehicle.

Just for the record, that M36B1 pictured above is Rubicon's. Was using it as eye-candy and example.
I will post pictures of my M36B1 when complete. Muzzle break removed and the crew is almost finished.