The Panzer IV Digital Library - PzIV Ausf H Painted 190816

[tyroflyer]

I can't vouch for the truth of this but various internet sites indicate these 'vorpanzer' additions could be found on Pz IV Ausf D, E and F. I suspect they weren't common on any of them but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be available in an expansion.

[Pinky]

I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.

[Rubicon Models]

I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.

This was particularly mentioned (with technical drawings) in the "Panzer IV & Its Variants" book from Spielberger German Armor & Military Vehicle Series.

[ripley]

Pzr IV B - D turret armor 30mm , superstructure 30mm  ( plus 30mm bolt on late D/E ). F - turret 50mm , super 50mm . G - J  turret 50mm , super G - 50mm +30mm bolt on  , H-J 80mm .  Not much protection in any of them really . Goes back to the initial design as a infantry support vehicle .   The Vorpanzer stuff might not be for everybody , the same with the Tauchpanzer , submersible details for those underwater traveling  tanks for Operation Sea Lion . Maybe Rubicon can do a Panzer IV  add on kit   with all these weird bits and the late J exhausts , mesh side skirts , etc . I'm sure a few of us modellers  are strange enough to want these weird , low produced tanks , wether there is a large enough market amongst the gamers to make it profitbale is another story . If not, I'm sure one of the after market companies could fill the void . They do make ARV add on resin / metal bits for the Cromwell , Sherman and Panzer III ., as well you can get AM turrets ( Sherman , Panther F , Whibelwind ) and dozer blades . I'm sure its just a matter of time till more AM parts are released

[Swamprat33]

I am only wanting to buy at this time 4 x panzer IV ausf J as this will fill an immediate gap in my collection.

I don't do anything earlier than 1944 currently, but that could change.

I am desperately waiting for the sdkfz 250/9 kit as well, although i did pick up a 251/3 and a 250/1 last weekend.

Tim

[ripley]

Really the only things common to all versions of the  J was the L48 gun and  no auxiliary engine ( and its small exhaust ) for the turret traverse , instead it was  manual .( The space was used for extra fuel tank) . You could find J's with the large barrel or flame damper exhaust , regular production  or extended side with tow ring hull . Rubber or steel return rollers ( 3 or 4 ), some had the side visors on the turret , hull sides and loader's side of the turret face removed . Both metal plate and wire mesh ( Thoma ) side skirts were seen . Most J's had the single piece commanders hatch but not all . Just remove the small exhaust from the late G/H and you have a easy to make J .The difference in a L43 and L48 gun in this scale is mm , so why worry about it ? The rest is just little cosmetic details ( who sees the turret and hull visors hiding behind the skirts any way ?( I posted pictures of various J versions  on Mar 02 page 8 this thread ),

[tyroflyer]

I think the gun length of an L43 is 334mm less than the L48. That's 6mm in 1/56 scale. I think I can spot that particularly if the different vehicles are near each other. Others might like to differ but I'd like to see Rubicon model these different variants. It think it adds depth to your tank collection!

In contrast my reference suggests an Ausf C is 10mm narrower than a D. Or less than point 2 of a millimetre at 1/56 scale. Pretty sure I wouldn't notice that. I don't know whether there is a theory on what the human eye/brain can distinguish. I imagine there is a relationship between the size of the discrepancy and the proportion that is of the object in question.   

[ripley]

Personally I would rather try to match the look of the vehicle I'm trying to model then really go to town , scale wise . I mean the real side skirts were 5-8mm in thickness , how thick are the plastic ones in the kit ? Even using 1mm plastic card they are still too thick for scale  . And , except for a small hand full of rivet counter nerds ( of which I'm one  ) most regular folks don't have a clue what tank I've built ( Pzr III or  IV ) never mind a H , J or N, unless I tell them . And again , except for us nerds , people have no clue what  details should   be included on said tank , and what should not . Is there a right or wrong way to build? No ,  we all build to our own skill level and enjoyment  wether the kit is to be used as  a gaming piece or in  a  diorama .  * Did Rubicon include L48 guns in the Stug III kit ? Might be a source of longer gun barrels

[tyroflyer]

I accept your point with the side skirts ripley. However I don't think there is a technical limitation with the barrel length. Depending on the wargames rules being used it might be valuable to model armour variations (eg vorpanzer) or different barrel lengths representing different penetration capabilities. I think it adds interest to the hobby.

I agree not many observers will know the difference but it's the model builder/owner that's learning and hopefully gaining something when they part with their money. My two cents worth anyway. 

[Pinky]

I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.

This was particularly mentioned (with technical drawings) in the "Panzer IV & Its Variants" book from Spielberger German Armor & Military Vehicle Series.

The uparmouring of the Ausf F is mentioned but I can't see any mention of an Ausf F Vorpanzer [edit - I think we're talking about different Spielberger books].

The uparmouring of the Ausf F put more weight on the suspension, so the tracks were widened.  Personally, I don't think that's going to be noticeable on a 1/56 scale kit - especially when the tracks are already somewhat simplified.

[tyroflyer]

Pinky, the Tank Encyclopedia has an artists side view of what purports to be a Pz IV F1 Vorpanzer. I don't know what evidence was used to create it.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_IV.php

[Pinky]

Yes, I saw that.  I don't think they're a very reliable source - especially their colour schemes.

I found a very poor photo of an Ausf F1 with Vorpanzer, and a little bit of information from what seems to be a Spielberger book.  I think this may be Rubicon's source.  My point is that the Ausf F already had increased armour protection, and by adding the Vorpanzer they would have increased the weight further.  Perhaps they just experimented with it? 

I think these vehicles are in France in 1942.  On close inspection, only the first one is an Ausf F1.

[tyroflyer]

It's a shame we don't appear to know when this extra armour first appeared. It would give a clue when it arrived on the production line and therefore on which variant. That is assuming it wasn't only a retrofit.

I wonder if it was considered worthwhile for tanks intended for employment in urban areas where the extra weight (poorly distributed) was less important than when travelling cross country. Pure speculation on my part. I note when the L43 weapon appeared the 'vorpanzer' extra pieces seem to have disappeared. The extra weight of the new weapon probably put an end to the idea.

My guess is it first appeared on Ausf E, Lasted until Ausf F1 and possibly retrofitted to Ausf D. However the paucity of photographic evidence suggests it was never common.

[ripley]

The Vorpanzer term also includes just the extra bolted on hull armor   as seen on D& E versions . From what I can find out from searching Missing Lynx and various kit reviews , mostly D & E got the turret armor ( numbers unknown, - the thought  on ML is that they all were sent to one unit in Russia ) , there is a picture of  one C and those 2 F1 s Pinky posted ( in Russia ) , with the turret armor . If other C s and F1 s got it , no other pictures have been found . Never say never with German stuff , but it seems that  the up armored hull , turret and longer gun came out and the vorpanzer add ons were no longer needed .

[Pinky]

"Vorpanzer" means "fore-armour" - spaced armour. 

One caption I found for the photo above says the Vorpanzer on the Ausf F1 glacis is as fitted to the Panzer III Ausf L.