M4A3 Revisited

[DerKobra]

or...This. Early M4A1 with Riveted Transmission, early M34 Mantlet and later Bogie system.

[Pinky]

Here's the M4A1 version that I want:

[Pinky]

I think that with some clever design, Rubicon could do a kit that built the early M4A1 or the late (76mm armed) version.  That would give them a chance to rectify the 76mm turret, as well as providing a very useful model of the Sherman.   

[H0ffmn]

I would like that model of Sherman as well

[DerKobra]

Here's the M4A1 version that I want:

Early version; notice the M3 Bogie system. Also the Track skirts and M34 Mantlet.

The Hull could be the platform to accommodate the M4 and M3 Bogie system.

[DerKobra]

This is the version I'd like to see most.

[Pinky]

I realised the M4A1 in the photo I posted is a very early type - it wouldn't be practical to have it as an option in the same kit as a late version - there'd be almost no common parts at all!

[Rubicon Models]

The M4 Sherman with its numerous variants are sometime very confusing, particularly with so many field modifications and repairs.  Based on publications from noted authors David Doyle and Rob Ervin, one popular classification is by means of hull hatch configuration.  Namely, "small hatch" that swing open parallel to the hull sides and hinged at two points, and "large hatch" that when open are not parallel to the hull sides and with a single hinge point.  Of note, the "large hatch" is of a later design.

On the M4A1, early hull had a 60° glacis, and late hull had a 47° glacis.  The first production M4A1, with rare exceptions, do not appear to have seen combat in US service, remaining stateside instead for training purposes.  Early production tanks started to see service from early 43 in Tunisia.  The "large hatch" version began production in January 44 with 76mm gun - these M4A1 tanks were first issued to troops for the breakout operation from the Normandy beachheads in July 44.  They became more common with armoured divisions as the European battles continued into the fall and winter of 44-45.

To do a M4A1, we needed to decide to do either the "small hatch" or the "large hatch" version BEFORE we even discuss what turret or gun to go with it...  any comments?

[Pinky]

The first production M4A1, with rare exceptions, do not appear to have seen combat in US service, remaining stateside instead for training purposes.  Early production tanks started to see service from early 43 in Tunisia.  The "large hatch" version began production in January 44 with 76mm gun - these M4A1 tanks were first issued to troops for the breakout operation from the Normandy beachheads in July 44.  They became more common with armoured divisions as the European battles continued into the fall and winter of 44-45.

The first production batch of M4A1s did see service, both with the US Army and the British Army.  Many of the tanks of the US 1st Armoured Division knocked out in large numbers in the initial stages of the Kasserine Pass debacle were very early M4A1s, with M3-style bogies and other early features (including riveted hulls, 3-piece transmission covers and blanked-off exhaust ports).  Below is a photo of one of the wrecks - they were lovingly photographed by German propaganda photographers soon after the battles.  The British also used these very early types, the first batch having been re-directed by Roosevelt from the US 2nd Armoured Division in time for Alamein.  The British M4A1s were modified by adding sand shields and blanket boxes.

If you do a 'large hatch' M4A1, then it's basically just going to be a 76mm Sherman.  You could include parts for the very later HVSS suspension, but HVSS M4A1s were pretty rare (people who want to model Israeli Shermans would be happy though).  There is photographic evidence that a small number of 'large hatch' M4A1s had 75mm turrets (the photos are all of DD tanks, however) but this wouldn't really justify including a 75mm turret.  ESCI's original 1/72 scale M4A1 depicted this rare variant.

A 'small hatch' M4A1 could include parts to depict an early version, as used by the British and US in North Africa and Italy, as well as the later version which saw service from 1943 through the Normandy campaign.  You'd need to include two different sets of tracks, plus different mantlets and applique armour - and, for the British version, sand shields and a blanket box.

[Rubicon Models]

This had been a fun discussion that had evolved from our initial discussion to include some extra variants for the M4A3 to an in-depth look for a new M4A1 kit.  With our current schedule in full capacity, this will still take some time to get the M4A1 into our production queue...  From various forum members, this is a summary of what you would expect to see from a new M4A1 kit:

- a "small hatch" M4A1 to depict an early version of the tank used by the British and US in North Africa and Italy
- extra parts to build a later version which saw service from 1943 through the Normandy campaign
- two different sets of tracks and suspension (?)
- different mantlets and applique armour
- track skirts and a blanket box for the British version

Really doubt if all these will fit into three standard sprues, still too early to say though...
Any more comments?

[H0ffmn]

It may be a lot to fit onto three sprues. You could put items that would be interchangeable , like suspension/track units , transmission covers , rear and lower hulls on one sprue, and upper hulls  and turrets that are unique to each variation on another .
You could  always make three different kits, instead of trying to fit all three variations in one box

[Rubicon Models]

It may be a lot to fit onto three sprues. You could put items that would be interchangeable , like suspension/track units , transmission covers , rear and lower hulls on one sprue, and upper hulls  and turrets that are unique to each variation on another .
You could  always make three different kits, instead of trying to fit all three variations in one box

That's what we have been doing with our latest kits.  The M4A1 will be of no exception if it goes into production.  Just give us some time to finish our scheduled projects on hand...  Will still need time to do more research on the M4A1 details and various configurations!

[DerKobra]

I would like to thank you, Rubicon, for being so close to the Customer. It shows that you do care and are willing to get it 'Right". You have me as a loyal Customer always.

The M4A1 was used throughout the war by the Americans. Yes, there were many modifications and Upgrades. However, at the core, the distinct rounded Hull is what we're striving to achieve.

Variations come in the following:

Early Transmission Case (Cast vs. Welded)
Early M3 Bogie vs. M4 Bogie system
Early M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm)

Thank you for the considerations.

Respectfully,

Mike

[Rubicon Models]

Variations come in the following:
Early Transmission Case (Cast vs. Welded)
Early M3 Bogie vs. M4 Bogie system
Early M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm)

Spent the whole afternoon today sitting down at our small study room reading all available literature about the M4A1.  We have concluded the following:

Transmission Case - Cast vs Welded: Possible!
M3 vs M4 Bogie System (with tracks): Possible!
M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm): Possible!
Applique Armour: Possible!
Track Skirts & Blanket Box (for British version): Possible!
Extra parts to build a later version (from 1943 through the Normandy Campaign): Still in research!

At this point, we cannot find any info on the "small hatch" version being used during the Normandy Campaign.  If so, what was the configuration?  Probably with a welded transmission case, M4 Bogie system, applique armour, and a M34A1 (75mm) mantlet (or) with a new turret and a 76mm gun?  Any input on this?

Anyway, we might be able to fit everything into 3 standard sprues (without extra turret)...

[H0ffmn]

This is the version I'd like to see most.

The scale drawing in this earlier post is the small hatch version that would have seen action from late in North Africa up until the end of the war. The turret with the 76mm gun would have been on the large hatch cast hull