British M5A1

[ultravanillasmurf]

Possibly the next kit for me to build is the M5A1.

To match up with my Sherman I unit, I am going to paint it up as a Guards' armoured division vehicle.

Now, did the reconnaissance squadron in each battalion of the Guards' Armoured division have Stuart's?

I have seen photographs of M5A1s labeled as Irish Guards and a colour plate (British Tanks In Normandy) of the same. I have also seen a photograph of an M3A3 (I think) for the Grenadier Guards.

Now did the Grenadier Guards use M5A1s in Normandy?

Any help gratefully received.

Thanks

[Pinky]

I know you'll have any relevant Osprey titles, so I'll look at my Concord books on British armour.  My recollection is that the Guards were one of the few British units that did use the M5A1.

[ultravanillasmurf]

Thanks.

Actually I only have the modelling book, not NVG33 (I think that is the number).

The Ludovic Fortin book (British Tanks in Normandy) does say that the reconnaissance squadron had Stuarts but is not specific about which ones, but does mention that the Guards' division received M5A1s first.

What made me wonder about the Grenadier Guards having them was a photograph in Campaign 1: Normandy 1944 on page 68 labeled as  Grenadier Guards M3.

Except that on actually looking at the photograph,  it appears to have the raised engine deck of an M5. And an anti aircraft gun.

I mention the anti aircraft gun as the photograph on page 37 of British Tanks in Normandy does not show an anti aircraft gun. But on closer inspection it does show the anglepoise mounting for one plus the shield with possibly shipping instructions...

Guess how far I have got with the kit and choices made...

I have not committed on the rear hull basket yet, the colour plate I have shows no basket.

Any help gratefully received.

[Pinky]

The Guards Armoured Division had 44 Stuarts on strength, all Stuart IVs (M5A1s).  There were 2 Grenadier Guard formations in the division - 1st Motorised Battalion Grenadier Guards, and 2nd Armoured Battalion Grenadier Guards.  Stuarts served with the recce troops of the Regimental HQ, so there would be some with the 2nd Armoured Battalion Grenadier Guards (tac sign: 51 on a red square).  The rest were probably in 1st Armoured Battalion Coldsream Guards and 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards.

[ultravanillasmurf]

Cool, thanks.

[Pinky]

I'll try and find some photos.  I still can't post them, so I may message them to you. 

[Pinky]

The Ludovic Fortin book (British Tanks in Normandy) does say that the reconnaissance squadron had Stuarts but is not specific about which ones, but does mention that the Guards' division received M5A1s first.

It seems clear that the Guards Armoured got them.  So did the Poles.

What made me wonder about the Grenadier Guards having them was a photograph in Campaign 1: Normandy 1944 on page 68 labeled as  Grenadier Guards M3.

Except that on actually looking at the photograph,  it appears to have the raised engine deck of an M5. And an anti aircraft gun.

It's a typical Osprey dud caption.  Some of their titles have more than one misidentified vehicle.  It's a Stuart VI.  It looks like the early production version without the armoured housing for the .30 cal.

I mention the anti aircraft gun as the photograph on page 37 of British Tanks in Normandy does not show an anti aircraft gun. But on closer inspection it does show the anglepoise mounting for one plus the shield with possibly shipping instructions...

Yes; as the caption says it's from the Irish Guards.  Apart from the one you've found, I can't find any photos of Stuart IVs with the Grenadier Guards.

I have not committed on the rear hull basket yet, the colour plate I have shows no basket.

It seems to have been uncommon on British M5A1s.

[ultravanillasmurf]

Thanks.

So, the plan is no rear hull basket. That will match up with the turret. I will add the mount for the Browning on the turret side.

I will go with the Grenadier Guards, even though it is based on an incorrectly labeled photograph ^___^

[Pinky]

The photo presumably does show a Grenadier Guards Stuart, even if they got the version wrong.  The caption in the book was probably based on the original photograph caption, as there's no way of otherwise identifying it as a Grenadier Guards vehicle.