Sdkfz 251 A/B and 232

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It would be nice to have an early 251 to cover the German army for 1939 - 41 campaign's since the 251C was produced from mid 1942.

I guess this could be done as an upgrade set; top hull with vision ports for the A , front hull armour,tool configuration on side of hull..

Since I am looking into the early war period why have we not got any 232 8 rad a/c`s yet, for the Blitzkrieg and DAK, unless they are on the RM to do list but I think they have a lot to do at the moment.

[EarlyWarGamer]

I would love a 251 A/B kit, even if it were just parts to turn a C into an earlier model. Always looking for "proper" models for Poland 1939 and France 1940 and Greece 1941!

[Jaeger]

From "The Complete Guide to German Armored Vehicles" found on page 258: 
"The Sdkfz 251 Aus C entered production in January 1940 and more producers joined the list of manufacturers".

[johan]

With some clever tooling, you could make all 4 variants: 231 AC, 232 radioversion, 233 7.5 pak and 263 command version.

[EarlyWarGamer]

@Jaeger ... I am going to respectfully disagree with the info in that book - but ONLY because I don't like the use of the word "produced".  When it comes to people (like me) who want to know when they entered combat, production doesn't mean anything. Being inspected, being signed-off as passing inspection, being shipped to and distributed to combat units, having them train with them so they are ready to see combat, and THEN entering combat is what matters.

The 251 Ausf A was in development for a few years (I have seen sources state either 1937 or 1938), but the first production models were delivered to military units in Spring 1939.  Only one of the Panzer divisions that saw service in Poland were partially equipped with any of these (the 1st Pz Divisions). And they were NOT fully supplied. Many grenadiers from this unit still rode in trucks! Production ended in mid-1940. 

The 251 Ausf B was a direct result of combat experiences in Poland. The design was simplified a bit to speed production.  These were produced until late 1940.

The 251 Ausf C may have entered production in January 1940, but they were not delivered to military units until the summer of 1940 ... too late to have seen any combat in France or the Low Countries.  So there were no Sd.Kfz. 251 Ausf Cs used in France 1940.

Which is why I would love to have a kit that allowed me to build either an A or a B ... because those are the only two models that saw any action up until the fall of France in 1940.

As for production numbers, the Ausf A and Ausf B were produced in limited numbers (maybe 500 of each). Total production of the A, B and C is 4,650 - so the majority of those first three models was the Ausf C,

Compare that to the Ausf D, which they built  10,602 of.  And since it appears that most gamers prefer the mid to late war period, this is the model that would most likely be seen.

So I see why a model company would offer up the Ausf D, and if they really wanted to make gamers happy, the Ausf C. And I can see why the Ausf A and Ausf B might never see the light of day.  But I can hope :-)

[ripley]

I seen figures saying about 480 A & B 251 built in total , mind you with about a half dozen factories building the vehicle and with the  parts coming from 10 or so maufacturers , there were all sorts of cross kitted vehicles ( A&B or  B&C parts on 1 vehicle ) .  I wonder it an Expansion set like the Stummel kit could be produced to back date a 251 C ? You would need a new upper hull / engine deck ,2 piece  front plate , a bumper , tools for the hull sides and then various small things , antenna mount , new front mg mount , etc  and IRC the seats were different ( no backs ) .  Would the average gamer / modeler shell out for both a 251C and an expansion kit to get a early war 251 or would most just proxy the C ? Or would it be more cost effective for a all new 251 A/B kit from Rubicon ?

[Jaeger]

EWG you can disagree with the facts all you want but it doesn't change them.  I didn't write the book, David Doyle is the author.
After about 232 SdKfz 251 Aus A vehicles had been produced, production shifted to the  SdKfz 251 Aus B.  The author reports that about 350 Aus B half-tracks were produced. 
A company of the Infantry Regiment of the 1st Panzer Division stationed at Weimar received their first complement of Gepanzerter Mannschafts Transportwagen (MTW) in the spring of 1939 just in time to be used operationally during the Polish campaign.
You are correct that many infantry units used trucks to transport troops.
I was correcting the above statement that the Aus C was produced from 1942 on.  As previously indicated production began January 1940. How many Aus C were used in France 1940 I currently don't know.

Converting an existing model of an Aus C to represent an Aus B would require modeling the front 2 intersecting pieces of armor.  The other modeling would need to be done to top front of the engine hood for the engine cooling grille.  Then there's the armored covers to protect the cooling air exhausts which the Aus A and B didn't have. The fenders over the Aus C tracks were designed with a slight up-sweep near the front .  And of course the round bumper which the Aus C doesn't have.

[Tracks]

For the common average historical miniature gamer, you can put a model of a 251A, 251B, and 251C together in the same group and they probably wouldn't even notice (if painted all the same color). Only those extremely enthusiastic, overzealous detail types of gamers might notice the difference. Especially the front of the vehicle since it will stand out like a dark spot on a white wall to them. That being said, it is not outside of the realm of possibilities to have a 1:56 scale 251 Ausf.B if you really wanted an Ausf.B instead of an Ausf,C. However, some scratch building skills and materials will be needed. Also some good references is a must.

It is when someone's extremely enthusiastic, overzealous detail behavior ruins a fun time, that is when it becomes really sad. A long time ago, a friend and I played a France 1940 skirmish game using 28mm (1:56 scale) figures. We used two 251 half-tracks. Never mind the fact that both models were Ausf.Cs, and never mind the fact that both models were painted panzer yellow (dunkelgelb). We used them anyway! Simply because at the time we had nothing else to use. Now, had the models been Ausf.Ds, then the foundations of historical gaming would have collapsed thereby pulling everything in the room into a black hole of despair.

Later down the road we did add more 251 Ausf.Cs to our collection. Some were even painted panzer grey.

[EarlyWarGamer]

@Jaeger ... It was not my post that said the Ausf C was built starting in 1942. That was a post by @Ad.

I was correcting what might have been an assumption people could make from your quote that the C was produced starting January 1940. A casual gamer might then expect an Sd.Kfz 251 Ausf C to be in France. And that assumption is wrong.

I certainly don't disagree that production of the C started in early 1940. But as none were delivered to combat units in time for France and the Low Countries in 1940, it means that lacking a "proper" vehicle, anyone who wants to game the early campaigns needs to substitute something else for the correct vehicle.

And I am no stranger to substitutions. My guess is that just about every gamer does it.  My chiming in on this thread from the start was because someone else started a thread which is dear to me: a request for a 251 A/B kit of some sort.

As you mentioned, turning a C into an A or a B has many different stages.  I suspect the front would be an easy mod. Not sure where all the tools that an A/B had on the hull would be found, but I suppose a lot of effort to make them could be invested.  But to me, the biggest change is shifting the side storage boxes towards the rear, so that a portion of the "fender" can angle up over the drive sprocket.  That seems like a deal breaker for me.  I will ignore all of the "fighting compartment" changes and stick just to the external differences.  That last one would require just too much time (for me). I have limited hobby time, and would rather spend the $$$ to get a kit and assemble, than customize an existing kit to make a missing model.

So I will simply substitute an Ausf C for an Ausf A/B.  But would I buy a kit (be it a complete A/B kit or just a mods kit to turn a C into an A/B)?  I sure would. I have three Ausf Cs now. I would want three A/Bs if I could get them.

[EarlyWarGamer]

@Tracks ... I substitute all the time, and have no issues doing so. But as you can tell from my screen name, I personally focus on Early War.  If I can find a "proper" model for the campaign in question, I will get it. If not, I substitute.

I own no Tigers (for example). So if I am playing a game that requires a Tiger, anything else must be the stand-in.

I play games for the socializing aspects, and for fun. Winning is fun.  But loosing while playing a fun game with a friend was still an afternoon or evening well spent!

[ripley]

If you want a resin 251 A , Trenchworx ( Sandy , Utah , USA ) has one which looks pretty good . I haven't bought any of their vehicles yet , but did pick up a couple of their FT-17 turrets ( nicely molded resin turret / 2 gun options in metal plus mini magnets ! ) for some Atlantic wall bunkers I plan to make .

[EarlyWarGamer]

@ripley ... Many Thanks!  I just ordered three of them! I remember stumbling upon a kickstarter of theirs 3-4 years ago, but didn't back at the time, and promptly forgot all about them.  Thanks for bringing them up.  I've got a book on order that will hopefully give me better details regarding the differences between the A and B. If there were all sorts of internal changes, I may let it go, but if it is mostly the removal of some vision ports, and moving the antenna ... I may need to get three more.

My "ideal" would be to have three As painted for Poland, and 3 Bs painted for France and the Low Countries.

[ripley]

Your welcome .  Here's a couple of pictures I'.ve found . 1st is a A , 2nd I'm not sure A or B but early pattern driver seat and racks for rifles / stowage instead of seat backs in crew compartment . Radio in A was on side wall behind co driver's shoulder . The  A  has a row of grenades behind driver seat ?

[Tracks]

Yes, I agree. Sometimes substitution is something gamers just need to deal with. That being said, I try to keep it as similar as possible, or change the scenario if needed. That is, I will not take something like a Panzer III and say its a Panzer II, but I have no problems taking a Panzer IIIF2 and saying its a Panzer IVH or IVJ, or take a Sherman 75 and saying its a Sherman 105. I do, but if I did not have a Jagdpanzer 38(t), well, instead of taking a Stug III and saying its a Jagdpanzer 38(t), I would just change the scenario so that it is a Stug III instead of a Jagdpanzer 38(t).

Oh, and EWG, you wouldn't need to worry about substitute something for a Tiger tank if you decided to adventure outside of the early war theater. I would be more than happy to let you borrow one of mine.

But getting back to the SdKfz 251 Ausf.A and SdKfz 251 Ausf.B German half-tracks. I just looked at some of my books and it looks like it would be relatively easy to convert a 1:56 scale plastic SdKfz 251 Ausf.C kit into an SdKfz 251 Ausf.B. Scratch building a new vehicle front might be fun.

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Sorry about that, didn`t mean too stir up a hornets nest,

 I got the date of mid 1942 from the sdkfz Wikipedia page.

But on the tanks-encyclopedia.com site it states the Ausf C was produced late 1941. Seems that there is a lot of conflicting data going around.

I think I will get some Protze trucks in the mean time, you can never have too much transport..