Author Topic: Panzer II Plastic TS1 Primed 200810  (Read 56284 times)

Rubicon Models

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2020, 05:21:07 pm »
Prototypes of the Panzer II are done!  Quite satisfied with the results, now onto some minor updates and sprue layout after QC approval!
































Enjoy!
;)

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2020, 02:08:24 am »
Nice.

ripley

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2020, 03:37:42 am »
Looks good . What is the hole on the flat part of the engine deck ? Pictures I have don't show it

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 04:19:19 am »
Looks good . What is the hole on the flat part of the engine deck ? Pictures I have don't show it
Yes, that is odd. It is not on the earlier CAD.

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2020, 05:41:34 am »
It won't be on the final model either. Something as an aide for the prototype tooling is my guess.

Tracks

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2020, 09:56:25 am »
Looking good. The fenders do not look overly done as I thought they would be.
When this is released (next year?), I will be one step closer to completing my collection.
That is when I actually get a couple of them.

As for the hole on the engine deck, that does seem strange.


EarlyWarGamer

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2020, 05:44:52 pm »
Well, I received my copy of Panzer Tracts 2-1 and after a thorough study, I am forced to say that while initially tickled pink to get a true early war vehicle, I am now disappointed in the Rubicon offering.

The A, B and C versions all had a rounded front hull. The armor upgrade that gave it the angular look was authorized in February 1940. It included the extra armor on the turret and the glacis plate, as well as the two plates that formed the angular front that covered the rounded hull.

Which means, none of the vehicles shown by Rubicon could have served in Poland. And likely not Norway either. Many armor upgrades were done in time for France 1940, but many round-hull tanks served there too.

So Poland is excluded (again).

There is no point in having the angular front without also having the added armor. There were no angle-fronted Pz II that didn't also have the added armor.  And by Poland, all Ausf A, B and C had bullet splash guards added to the superstructure top around the turret ring. So not sure there is any point in a superstructure that doesn't have that splash guard.

So the Ausf A and Ausf B should have bullet splash guards (and it is not there).  The Ausf B was the transition model from the vision ports as shown - (with two bolts above and one bolt below the slot) to the improved vision ports (that had two bolts on the vision port itself, and two more bolts above and below for a total of 6). So the Ausf B is fine as shown (other than the rounded hull).

The Ausf C had all improved vision ports (the 6-bolt pattern).  But of course, the rounded front hull.

So we have valid Pz IIs for France 1940 onward that can serve in Europe.  But none of these can serve in Africa, because all Pz II's sent to Africa were first given a hot climate make-over, and that means the louvers on the radio hatch were enlarged, and also added to the area on the left rear (where there is currently a hatch). In fact, the Ausf F shown has louvers there, but the wrong louvers for the radio hatch.

As I said, now I am a bit disappointed. Nothing for Poland, and nothing for Africa.  These are all February 1940 onward.

The Cupola became a back-fit authorized in October 1940 (along with the addition of the Notek blackout light). So at least these can serve in Barbarossa and elsewhere.

I think if the kit had a rounded front hull and no extra armor, and an angular front hull with extra armor, and a rear deck for europe and a rear deck for Africa, this would have been a much more usable kit.  Could have served in any campaign from September 1939 onward.

BTW - There were 250 Ausf a, b and c built, 210 Ausf As built, 384 Ausf Bs built, and 364 Ausf Cs built for a total of 1208. Heer records indicate there were 1223 available as of Sep 1st 1939 so somewhere along the line another 15 were manufactured.

All that said, I am still happy to see a plastic Pz II, and I will get me some. And I know, I know, most folks will not know that when I paint them up to serve in Poland, that the angled front is wrong.  But ... I will know.

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2020, 07:04:41 pm »
I just noticed there is the trough for the aerial, but no aerial.

Jaeger

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2020, 09:52:58 pm »
EWG - good post about the rounded hull fronts.

Tracks

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2020, 10:05:46 am »
@EWG - Well done on the research and pointing out some of the important details between earlier and later Panzer IIs. We will have to wait and see what RM has to say about all this. Hopefully RM knows about this (or maybe not), but how feasible would it have been to try and include all this into one kit?

Between you and me, I prefer the look and period of use of the later angled front over the rounded front, but I completely agree with everything you said above.

One note to make:
With the Ausf F chassis, RM can use the lower hull and tracks to produce a sdkfz 131 Marder II model kit. With over 650 built, how surprising would that be? I still would like to see RM make a M3 Medium (Lee/Grant) model kit first, but at least RM has already completed most of the work and could later add a sdkfz 131 Marder II model kit to the catalog.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 09:23:36 pm by Tracks »

Rubicon Models

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2020, 02:26:50 pm »
Thanks for all the comments and input.  We are quite aware of the initial elliptical front hull and the rectangular upgrade that we are using.  We choose the latter because it extended the vehicle's usefulness into mid-war for many gamers.  Also, the rectangular upgrade was actually welded-on plates onto the original elliptical design (plus changes to the roadwheels and suspension system) making it extremely difficult for us to offer two lower hull designs on a 2 sprue kit.  Depending on market demand, we might do an early kit later after the current kit is released.  As for other conversions and variants, that had to wait too.

jamesvalentine

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2020, 02:26:37 am »
I highly doubt the large majority of people will really care.
Just paint it grey/sand.
Slap some blitzkrieg/Afrika Korp Germans around.
And roll through Poland/North Africa with your toys.

Tracks

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2020, 09:36:03 am »
Quote from: EarlyWarGamer
And by Poland, all Ausf A, B and C had bullet splash guards added to the superstructure top around the turret ring. So not sure there is any point in a superstructure that doesn't have that splash guard.

Follow up on EWG's good research:
Looking at actual photos in books and online, it doesn't seem that every Panzer II had splash guards. Even the surviving Panzer II (an Ausf.C) at Saumur's tank museum does not have splash guards. A lot of photos show splash guards around the turret, but not all, so this part should be optional? Regardless, the Panzer II on the left has splash guards and the one on the right does not.


I can't wait to get my hands on some of these Panzer II plastic kits from Rubicon Models.

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2020, 11:44:54 am »
Well, they built 74 Ausf c (note lower case). This was the first version to have a revamped suspension with 5 road wheels.  The driver's visor was a flat rectangle, and the radio operator's hatch had vents that ran parallel to the tracks (as opposed to perpendicular).  It also had two fire extinguishers (reduced to one by the time the Ausf A came along).  But otherwise, it can easily be confused with an Ausf A.

I mention this because the Ausf c and Ausf A look very similar. If not for the new driver's visor being a raised triangle (instead of flat), and having only one fire extinguisher, and different angle to the radio hatch vents ... the two were very close. During production of the Ausf A, bullet deflectors were bolted in various spots around the turret ring, but not all Ausf A got those.

As far as I can find out, the Ausf c was not retrofitted with bullet deflectors.  I have seen photos of Ausf c that were backfitted with more armor on the turret front, glacis plate, and front hull, and a cupola. But I have yet to find a single photo of an Ausf c that had bullet deflectors.

So it seems to me that all Pz II Ausf c had no bullet deflectors, and some of the Ausf As also had no bullet deflectors.  By the Ausf B they were part of standard production.

So I may have misspoken when I said that by Poland, all A, B and C models had splash guards. Certainly all B and C, and most A's did.  I am searching for the reference where I thought I read that Ausf As were backfitted with bullet splash guards. So until I can confirm, I will go with "some" Ausf As had it, and some did not, for Poland.

I think when looking at photos of Pz IIs in Poland, lots of them are side shots, and thus it makes it hard to know if it is an Ausf c (lower case), or one of the A, B or C models. Perhaps a fire extinguisher on the front, right fender is the give-away that it is an Ausf c.

Tracks

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Re: New Project of the Month - Panzer II 3D Prototype 200416
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2020, 10:35:07 am »
@EWG - you said, "Nothing for Poland, and nothing for Africa." But I have been looking at photos of Pz IIs in Africa. I see a lot of Pz IIs with the angled front hull. Not so many with the rounded front hull, but I see these too. Certainly the Ausf. F was in Africa.

Looks like the rounded hull is exclusive to Spain, Poland, and possibly Norway. However, I was just reading that a number of changes were being added because of the lessons learned in Spain. One of these changes being the angled bow plate (more armor). This suggests that the angled front hull was being added before the Polish campaign of 1939, but I have not yet seen a photo of a Pz II in Poland (1939) with the angled front hull. That being said, over 1,000 Pz IIs participated in the Polish Campaign, and if the angled hull was being added before the campaign, how many Pz IIs got this upgrade, if any at all? If any did have the angled hull, it might have been a small portion, so how likely is it that we are going to find a photo? I do not have the Panzer Tracts booklet... yet? EWG, does your Panzer Tracts book have any good hard details about this?