Soviet BTR-60PA/B APC TS1 Test Assembly 210625

[H0ffmn]

I'm not questioning your starting point or complaining, I'm just suggesting decal choices for your Soviet made vehicles from this era

[Rubicon Models]

I'm not questioning your starting point or complaining, I'm just suggesting decal choices for your Soviet made vehicles from this era

Not at all.  The decal choices you suggested will probably be included on the decal sheets... in fact, we are looking into more to cover different period similar to what we did for the British Centurion tank.

[spad]

60 current operators, 18 former operators, 38 conflicts
Thank you for asking me to put forward suggestions for decal choices. Before I do I'd like to mention that I have been a wargamer and modeller for 59 years so I have a pretty good handle on both hobbies and their participants. Whilst I understand that there are gamers who fixate on one subject for the whole of their gaming life (must recreate the Waffen SS on a one to one basis) there are also a lot of gamers who get bored with their current obsession and are constantly looking for something new or pursuing the latest trend and a lot more gamers happily inbetween these extremes. With this info in mind, and knowing that Rubicon like a bit of innovation I submit the following for your consideration;

First we have a list of conflicts in which the BTR took part. I have annotated those which I think may be the most popular, therefore the best choices for decals.

List of conflicts

    1955–1975 – Vietnam War (North Vietnam)                        Already a given
    1966–1991 – South African Border War (Angola, Cuba)      T-34, T-55, Comet, Centurion
    1967 – Six-Day War (Egypt, Syria)                                       T-34, T-55, Centurion, Halftrack, Sherman
    1968 – Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia
    1969 – Sino-Soviet border conflict (Soviet Union)               
    1973 – Yom Kippur War (Egypt, Syria)                                 T-34, T-55, Centurion, Halftrack
    1974–1991 – Ethiopian Civil War
    1961–1991 – Eritrean War for Independence
    1975–1990 – Lebanese Civil War
    1975–1991 – Western Sahara War (Polisario)
    1975–2002 – Angolan Civil War
    1977–1978 – Ogaden War
    1978–1987 – Chadian–Libyan conflict
    1979–1988 – Soviet–Afghan War (Soviet, Afghan)            Given ?
    1980–1988 – Iran–Iraq War (Iran, Iraq)                            Given ?
    1982 – 1982 Ethiopian–Somali Border War
    1983 – Invasion of Grenada (Grenada)
    1988–1993 – Georgian Civil War
        1992–1993 – War in Abkhazia
    1988–1994 – First Nagorno-Karabakh War (Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenia, Azerbaijan)
    1989 – Romanian Revolution (Romania)
    1990–1991 – First Persian Gulf War (Iraq)
    1991–present – Somali Civil War
    1991–1999 – Yugoslav wars
    1992–1997 – Civil War in Tajikistan
    1993 – present – Kurdish–Turkish conflict (Turkey)
    1994 – Civil War in Yemen
    1994–1996 – First Chechen War (Russia)
    1999–2009 – Second Chechen War (Russia)
    2001–2016 – War in Afghanistan
    2003–2011 – Iraq War
        2003 – Invasion of Iraq (Iraq)
    2011 – Libyan Civil War (Gaddafi and Anti-Gaddafi forces)
    2011–present – Syrian civil war (Government forces and rebels)
    2014–present – War in Donbass (Ukraine and Pro-Russian rebel forces)
    2020 – 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

These would be among my suggestions for the initial decals. I have also noted the availability of other Rubicon kits already out there.
Type Soviet BTR-60PA/B APC into Wiki and it will show that 60 nations still use the APC and 18 others used to.
"Build it and they will come"
Hope this helps.

[Corisco]

The BTR-60 was not in Vietnamese use during the Vietnam War. The earliest operational use of the BTR-60 by the PAVN that I am aware of is in Cambodia post 1979 as part of the Vietnamese counter-insurgency there (Vietnam's Vietnam as some would have it).

Whilst it is a very useful vehicle and the forthcoming kit looks fabulous it is a fairly strange choice for a Vietnam tie in.  File it alongside the fantasy M203s for the USMC box.

If Rubicon wanted a PAVN APC that saw some actual use prior to 1975 they probably would have been better off with  a BTR-50 or the Chinese Type 63, which was the most prevalent APC in 1972 and 1975. Probably a bit more of a niche item, they did see quite a lot of use in various Middle Eastern conflicts, including the Iran-Iraq War, Gulf War and the Invasion of Iraq.

[Rubicon Models]

The BTR-60 was not in Vietnamese use during the Vietnam War. The earliest operational use of the BTR-60 by the PAVN that I am aware of is in Cambodia post 1979 as part of the Vietnamese counter-insurgency there (Vietnam's Vietnam as some would have it).

This is not the case from various online sources and publications.  A popular wiki source...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-60

[Corisco]

Hmm. If you read down that Wkipedia entry you will find the following under the Vietnam entry for current users.

“500 BTR-60PBs were ordered in 1978 from the Soviet Union and delivered between 1978 and 1980 (the vehicles were probably previously in Soviet service)….”

Which, if you are a student of history, is the year that the Soviet Vietnamese Treaty of Friendship and Co-operation was signed. Vietnam had already pivoted away from China as its major arms supplier as relations between the two rapidly declined in the aftermath of the war. The Soviet Union was still supplying Vietnam with T-55 and T-62 in the 1980s.

I’ve yet to see a single photo of a BTR-60 in Vietnamese service that predates the Vietnamese-Cambodian War. That includes visits to the major Vietnamese military museums in Hanoi and HCM City.  No mention that I’m aware of in US reports following the 1972 Easter Offensive, which saw the largest concentration of armour by the PAVN prior to the final offensives in 1975.

It’s entirely possible that there were BTR-60 in PAVN service pre 1978. in fact one wargaming site makes a claim for a handful in 1973 but they cannot have been very prominent as no visual record seems to exist. On the other hand I have seen photos of BTR-60PB in Vietnamese service in Cambodia in the 1980s. In fact I believe they handed a few down to the Kampuchean Army.

[Rubicon Models]

From reliable Vietnamese sources, the Soviets had supplied "used" BTR-60PB to the PAVN towards the end of the Vietnam War.

Here are a few video captures of the BTR-60PB moving towards Saigon on the last days of the war.  From what we were told, these videos were Vietnamese documentaries that had not been seen outside of Vietnam until recently.







Enjoy!

[ZRV]

BTR-60PB were not used in Chechen wars. Most were withdrawn from service long before that time.
What was used - R-145BM (and variants) Command/Communication vehicle on BTR-60 chassis.

[Corisco]

From reliable Vietnamese sources, the Soviets had supplied "used" BTR-60PB to the PAVN towards the end of the Vietnam War.

Here are a few video captures of the BTR-60PB moving towards Saigon on the last days of the war.  From what we were told, these videos were Vietnamese documentaries that had not been seen outside of Vietnam until recently.







Enjoy!

Very interesting! I stand corrected.

I've had a bit of a search through online on Vietnamese sites and it seems that indeed a few were in service late in the war. There's even a suggestion of a battalion's worth being used in the Ho Chi Minh campaign by the 23rd Mechanised Battalion. The earliest depiction or reference I can find is a photo purporting to be a BTR-60 converted to act as the carriage for Ho's coffin, so that would date usage to 1969. Model can't be identified from the photo but as the PB had only just come into service in the Soviet Union, I'm guessing it's a PA or possibly a converted command variant.

That said the overwhelming majority of published photos on line show Chinese Type 63 (K-63) and BTR-50 variants for the '72 and '75 campaigns so I'd suggest that whilst it seems that BTR-60s were present in 1975 they were still not especially common.

It's funny, in the wake of the Sino-Vietnamese War, Vietnam went to some lengths to publicly down play the extent of Chinese  aid during the Liberation war. They even changed the public record to show that a Soviet built T-54 was the first tank to enter the grounds of the Presidential Palace in Saigon, despite contemporary photographic evidence showing it was in fact a Chinese made T-59. Despite that contemporary photos of Chinese built APCs abound.

[Rubicon Models]

@Corisco, history is always written by those who are in power.

Likewise, there are a good number of factors for a vehicle being chosen as a plastic kit project.

   1) Availability of reference material, such as historical background, blueprints, photos, and publications.

   2) Popularity and usability of the vehicle in a tabletop game setting.

   3) Subject of interest by gamers and modellers.

   4) Life span of the vehicle throughout different conflicts.

Vietnam War is a good starting point for us to explore our market outside of World War Two.  The Vietnam War lasted for 19 years and was intertwined with the Cold War which lasted about 45 years.

When we find a vehicle of interest, we usually will look at its life span, number produced, territory, and conflict involvement.  Taking the BTR-60P as an example, we have drawing for all three variants and finally decided to only produce the BTR-60PA and BTR-60PB.  The 60PB variant is our main focus because this variant was used in different conflicts till the present day.  The 60PA is included for variety because the inclusion involved only a small number of new parts.

As a small business, we need to forecast our sales and return-on-investment (ROI) for each project.  The risk factory to produce a multi-sprue plastic kit will be very high if we choose an unpopular subject.  Moulds are relatively expensive to produce and maintain; breakeven is difficult especially with multi-mould projects.

[ZRV]

PB is a great choice since P and PA had very short lifespan.
In fact I've seen BTR-60PB with Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh last year. Although, it is heavily modified - diesel etc...
Would you guys consider BTR-60 add-on set later on?  It can be easily converted into BTR-60 R-145BM communication vehicle,
BTR-60PU-12 air defense command vehicle and BTR-60 1V18 artillery command and forward observer vehicle.
I'll be happy to help you with informantion.