Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => General Discussions => Topic started by: Tracks on July 08, 2018, 08:21:02 pm
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Hello fellow color enthusiasts. This thread's topic is German Panzer Grey/Gray (Dunkelgrau) during WW2.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/mty3r5cqn/Actual_Panzer38t.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mty3r5cqn/)
(https://s19.postimg.cc/mh6pkz26n/Actual_Sdkfz10.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mh6pkz26n/)
(https://s19.postimg.cc/d9eh49fov/Panzer38t_PG.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/d9eh49fov/)
Warning: Color facts can be a very intense and complex subject at times.
When you mention "Panzer Grey/Gray", the one thing for sure you are going to hear or read about are multiple answers and responses from people telling you what the actual color should be. Is there such an exact color?
I have lots and lots of books about German WW2 tank camouflage, and even the leading experts in the field cannot seem to agree on this topic. Of course, it does not help that the actual color of the gray used by the Germans during WW2 might have varied from batch to batch and factory to factory. Also, how some paints age and oxidize influence their color. We also have distance and scale to consider, and don't get me started on lighting conditions or how the different colors of dust and dirt (weathering) can have. Oh, and I almost forgot about the finish because the exact same color can appear different depending on if it is a flat finish, semi-gloss finish, or glossy finish (wet).
That being said, what color of Panzer Grey paint do you use on your 1:56 (28mm) scale models?
Humbrol 67 Matt Tank Grey
Mig Dunkelgrau
Poly-S Panzer Gray
Revell 78 Panzergrau
Tamiya XF-63 Panzer Grey (TS-4, Spray)
Testors Panzer Schwarzgrau
Vallejo 70.994 Dark Grey (166)
Vallejo 70.995 German Grey (167)
Vallejo 70.867 Dark Bluegrey (164)
Vallejo 71.054 Dark Bluegrey
Vallejo RAL7021 German Panzer Grey
Other?
You mix your own?
For myself, I have used off the shelf colors, but lately I have been experimenting by mixing my own Panzer Gray color*. For example, the two 1:56 (28mm) scale Panzer 38(t)s you see above are painted in one of my custom colors I have been mixing and experimenting with on my German 1:56 scale miniatures. It is a mix of three parts Vallejo 70.867 Dark Bluegrey to one part Vallejo 70.816 Luftwafe Uniform WW2. I actually like the results, but I may tweak the primary base color. Maybe four parts Vallejo 70.867 Dark Bluegrey to one part Vallejo 70.816 Luftwafe Uniform WW2 would be better. What do you think?
Do you have any German WW2 vehicles or equipment painted in Panzer Grey/Gray? If so, please share pictures of your work. Also please include what color you used to paint the model.
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I've used Humbrol Matt 67 forever it seems , or at least since Humbol renumbered their paints when they got rid of the sets of Army specific colors ( late 70s ? ) . I painted a lot of early war 1/35 scale back then and it was about the best and easiest color to find in all hobby shops . Fast forward 40 years - it seems I only have one tank painted in grey - Vallejo 70.995
(https://s33.postimg.cc/bwgjdj8iz/IMG_20180708_080916867.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bwgjdj8iz/)
As my main interests are now in mid / late war I have no real need for German greys . I mostly use it to give me some early war colored fuel cans and on vehicle tool boxes etc . IRC the tank is V .995 and the fuel cans are H matt 97 just for a slight difference in base color . I also found that the V.995 mixed with a little black gives me a good color for the Panzer black uniforms of my tank troops . Never could get layers of back to look right .
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Here is a new picture of my Marder III (Sdkfz 139).
(https://s19.postimg.cc/4wr5sfzov/Mrdr3_001_cp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4wr5sfzov/)
I had painted this Marder III in the exact same style and colors that I painted the two Panzer 38(t)s shown above. I had some 1:56 (28mm) scale German vehicles (resin kits) that I painted using off the shelf paints. A few were painted with Tamiya XF-63 Panzer Grey and a few were painted with Vallejo 70.867 Dark Bluegrey. However, when I went to retrieve them for a photo shoot I realized I sold them with some other resin kits.
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A couple of Panzer 38(t)s.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-w7xKmj0tGNk/WTgwwYBheZI/AAAAAAAACWk/Y_3Mrx5SAt82Zhm_poNGaTqAqyMtrnhIwCLcB/s1600/compare-pzr38t-2.png)
The Warlord resin is Vallejo Black Grey.
A Panzer IB.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TY-MHVseM2g/WlpTxxilHOI/AAAAAAAAC30/AXTvWista8UrSjeX09OjXHQbqSG_D2z0wCLcBGAs/s1600/pz1b-24.png)
Citadel Mechanicus Grey spray.
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Great topic, Tracks.
I used to use Humbrol's so-called 'Panzer Grey' for many years. When I switched from enamels to acrylic, I didn't paint historical stuff and didn't have to match colours. When I got back into historicals, I spent a lot of time trying to match colours to paint chip samples. This is very difficult, for the reasons Tracks mentions. My sister is a professional artist, and she helped me to mix Citadel paints to match the chip samples for Panzer Grey and Dark Yellow. The colours looked great - but I couldn't replicate the exact shade with each batch. So I went back to the drawing board. I am now using a Vallejo dark grey that looks about right (I need to check which one). However, it's a bit dull, and I actually prefer the more bluish tone that Tracks and UVS have obtained.
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I’ve been told that the plastic soldier company spray colours are pretty good.
I’ve only used the US olive drab (which is good), so can’t comment further.
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I have found the PSC Panzer Yellow and British Tank Green do not match well with the equivalent Vallejo paints. Their Green is a bit darker.
No idea on the Panzer Grey.
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The PSC British Tank Green is useful, but more (though not exactly) like KG3 than SCC15/British olive drab - so it depends on what point in the war you're painting.
As to versions of Dunklegrau, the Mig modulation set looks pretty good (I've not used it yet, but have used their Dunklegelb & US olive drab versions - both are very good) - four shades, from shadow to final high-light. They're not the only ones to produce a similar product with both AK Interactive & Vallejo producing paintsets (a link to an in-use review of the AK set: youtube.com/watch?v=_HGlQA9SPgc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_HGlQA9SPgc)
& one for the Vallejo:
youtube.com/watch?v=3E6vVPaZkt4 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3E6vVPaZkt4)) Both benefit from a blue filter (again, both Mig & AK do one) if you're after that faintly blue tinge to your panzer grey.
Hope that may be of some use to someone :)
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Blue or No Blue?
One aspect about the Panzer Grey paint I forgot to mention in the original posting was, does it have a blue hue to it or not? This is a debate that has been going on among modellers for sometime with no end in sight.
Now I'm not going to say yes or no to this, but I can tell you that I have seen actual WW2 German vehicles from private collections and museums, and in a few cases were they claimed that the paint finish is original or repainted with authentic surplus paint - makes me wonder where they found that paint - I can see a blue hue to the gray. This being more obvious when the vehicle is outside in the sunlight. That being said, I have also seen varying degree of "blueness" on different vehicles. Sometimes it was only very slight.
Something interesting I noticed is that a lot of the expert modellers mix their own Panzer Grey color, and most of them seem to add a blue to their mix, or later add a blueish-grey over a darker grey. I have noted many of these recipes over the years from modelling books and magazines, but these Panzer Grey recipes are only good to those that think that Panzer Grey might have had a blue hue.
Darker or Lighter?
This next section is mostly for those new to modelling because modellers should be aware that most model paints are produced as if you were going to paint on a full size (1:1) vehicle. Allowances for scale effect are the modeller's responsibility, so remember that the smaller the scale, the lighter the shades of paint you will need. This will give you a more realistic appearance.
Also, because weathering and especially most filters have a tendency to darken a finish, I'd start with a lighter mix if its a dark color like Panzer Grey.
Testing and experimenting is always part of the hobby.
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I wonder if the blue tinge was on account of small discrepancies in the manufacture of said paint , and which ( I assume more than one ) company made it . US OD had about 5 variations depending on which factory made it and what ingredient was cut back on or replaced altogether due to shortages . I think the German paint supply would be affected to a greatr degree as the war went on e
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The colour in photographs would also be affected by the emulsions used and the subsequent processing.
I suspect that the colour would degrade over time, both on vehicles and in the can.
Nowadays, white balance is an issue with digital photographs.
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The blue tint to Dunklegrau is a bit elusive - it's not really visible in paint chips from the period, but put that same paint on a large object & the interplay with the light can certainly give it that appearance as Tracks says. I agree with UVS in that colour photos from the period can't be seen as a reliable indication of true colour either, for the reasons he gave. Similarly, vehicles sporting their original paint have had 80 years of fading & weathering & as a consequence are no more indicative of actual colour. The paint on vehicles in collections also seems to be a mixed bag, with wildly inaccurate colours sometimes used in even the best (Bovington's Jadgtiger being one, before it's recent re-paint).
A faint blue tint can add 'life' to a models otherwise slightly flat colour scheme. Many modellers describe wanting their models to 'pop' on the table or display cabinet & when viewing a small model from a distance, (probably 18-24" on a tabletop) a slight exaggeration of the contrasts of shadows & high-lights brings out the detail.
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Has anyone tried this "Blue Filter for Panzer Grey" product from AK? I only just learned of this stuff, so I have not.
Also, for me it is somewhat difficult to get this sort of stuff, so I will not be trying it anytime soon. Would like to hear from others that have used this product.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/5swvn2dj3/AK_filterblue.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5swvn2dj3/)
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Never heard of this line of products before Tracks! I am not likely to try it, as I prefer a straight from the bottle approach if at all possible. I can never match the hue when mixing my own colors. Since my models are "toys" and not museum pieces, getting "close enough" to what I visually expected to see using a color straight from the bottle is good enough for my eyes.
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Since my models are "toys" and not museum pieces, getting "close enough" to what I visually expected to see using a color straight from the bottle is good enough for my eyes.
We would very much like to see some of your "toys".
Do have any that are in Panzer Grey?
If so, please share pictures of your work. Also please include what color you used to paint the model.
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Rubicon Models just posted pictures of painted samples of the forth coming Kübelwagen. Being painted grey, I couldn't resist but include one of the sample pictures here.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/German%20Vehicles/Kubelwagen%20TS1%20Painted%20180717-07_zpswzha1jqn.jpg)
The other pictures can be seen here:
http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=706.msg10223#msg10223
@Rubicon Models - what color grey was used to paint the Kübelwagen?
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@Rubicon Models - what color grey was used to paint the Kübelwagen?
It is basically Vallejo panzer grey, followed by Vallejo panzer dark grey (71.056) plus a light spray of aged white for highlights.
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Has anyone tried this "Blue Filter for Panzer Grey" product from AK?
- While I haven't yet used the filter for panzer grey, I have been using (in this case the Mig version) of a tan filter for three colour camo for quite a while now. It has proven very useful as it both smooths out colour transitions in modulation type paintjobs while slightly darkening the overall tone - necessary as the modulation tends to create a slightly too bright tone otherwise, as demonstrated on the Rubicon/Heer46 Panther below.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/yfsmdpwv1/Panther_Ausf_F_stage_2_three_colour_modulation_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yfsmdpwv1/)
Here's the 'raw' modulation, as you can see the colours are quite bright.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/e8f6llmkt/Panther_Ausf_F_stage_3_filter_wash_pin_wash_chipping_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e8f6llmkt/)
Here you can see that the filter has knocked the brightness back a fair bit.
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The colour in photographs would also be affected by the emulsions used and the subsequent processing.
I suspect that the colour would degrade over time, both on vehicles and in the can.
Nowadays, white balance is an issue with digital photographs.
The blue tint to Dunklegrau is a bit elusive - it's not really visible in paint chips from the period, but put that same paint on a large object & the interplay with the light can certainly give it that appearance as Tracks says. I agree with UVS in that colour photos from the period can't be seen as a reliable indication of true colour either, for the reasons he gave. Similarly, vehicles sporting their original paint have had 80 years of fading & weathering & as a consequence are no more indicative of actual colour. The paint on vehicles in collections also seems to be a mixed bag, with wildly inaccurate colours sometimes used in even the best (Bovington's Jadgtiger being one, before it's recent re-paint).
A faint blue tint can add 'life' to a models otherwise slightly flat colour scheme. Many modellers describe wanting their models to 'pop' on the table or display cabinet & when viewing a small model from a distance, (probably 18-24" on a tabletop) a slight exaggeration of the contrasts of shadows & high-lights brings out the detail.
I completely, photos should never be taken for proof when it comes to color. Especially WW2 color combat photos. Even digital images from state-of-the-art cameras and other recording devices can lead modellers down the wrong path. Take for example the two photos below. Both photos show the exact same German half-track, at the exact same event, on the exact same day, at almost the exact same time - they were only taken a few seconds apart. The only difference being two different cameras were used by two different people, and yet look how different the two photos are!
(https://s19.postimg.cc/413ws5mgf/Sdkfz251_blue_more_less.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/413ws5mgf/)
The only thing you can rely one are your trusty Mark-I eyeballs, but even then, what you see has to be correct or accurate. I can tell you that the half-track shown in the photos above looked different to my Mark-I eyeballs. I would say it was less blue than the above photo, but a little be more than the bottom one. However, at that time during the even, how accurately painted was the German half-track?
The most important aspect that new modellers need to aware of is that model paints are produced as if they were going to be applied to a full sized (1:1) vehicle. It is the modeller's responsibility to make for allowances for scale effect, and usually this means smaller the scale, the lighter the shades of paint.
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The mark one eyeball is an amazing bit of kit but the whole package suffers from various issues (see the discussions on "that dress".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-31655236/is-this-dress-white-and-gold-or-blue-and-black (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-31655236/is-this-dress-white-and-gold-or-blue-and-black)
Even with the same camera, unless you do a manual white balance (or white balance it against a known "white"), it can vary.
I did some colour comparisons here http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/2017/07/lead-legion-colours.html (http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/2017/07/lead-legion-colours.html)
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Amazing pair of photos Tracks! Illustrates in one go the perceived differences of cameras and film/digital. Same vehicle, same day, same time, same weather and lighting, different cameras, and one has the blue tint, and one does not!
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Wow what a contrast in how the fake 251 looks . ( check the sprocket/track , it's a rebuilt OT -? ) ) . Personally , I'm partial to the color prints I saw in Squadron / Signal books when I first started to get serious about modelling , way back in the early 70s. Those colors , right or wrong , made an impression on me , and I still judge the paints I use by those colors . I've added shading and washes to the mix but the base colors are still based on those color prints . From the built / painted kit pictures we've posted in this thread , we've all got our own version of what looks right to us in Panzer Grey/Gray . Do we what to talk about our fav Panzer Yellow now ? We probably all have our own favorite of that too . And do we trust the experts to get it right ? Just look at the variations in Panzer Yellow in the Bovington Tiger family display ...
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That not-251 pic is a perfect example of what's been said here, minor changes in ambient light or a different camera can make a huge difference.
The most important aspect that new modellers need to aware of is that model paints are produced as if they were going to be applied to a full sized (1:1) vehicle
- As Tracks says, the 'actual' tone of the paint applied to a full size vehicle is very likely to look far too dark when applied to our (pretty small) models - significant lightening of the colour is necessary. Some paint manufacturers (notably Mig & AK) do attempt to remedy this through a process they call 'scale reduction' - essentially lightening the colour so that it'll look correct when applied to a scale model (there are plenty of arguments as to the success (or not) of this approach on modelling fora & I'm certainly not looking to start it here).
Perhaps they're trying to cover all the bases, but AK also have a new range out, called 'Real Color', claiming to be exact matches - I can't comment, not having tried them yet - they're lacquer-based paints like Tamiya/Sanyo Gunze/Lifecolor, which may or may not put people off, but the range is already quite large.
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I'm partial to the color prints I saw in Squadron / Signal books when I first started to get serious about modelling , way back in the early 70s. Those colors , right or wrong , made an impression on me , and I still judge the paints I use by those colors . I've added shading and washes to the mix but the base colors are still based on those color prints . From the built / painted kit pictures we've posted in this thread , we've all got our own version of what looks right to us in Panzer Grey/Gray
Me too! And I think that is why I tend to go with a tint of blue.
And not because blue is my favorite color! :D
Do we what to talk about our fav Panzer Yellow now ? We probably all have our own favorite of that too.
That is for "The German Panzer Yellow Thread - WW2 Color" topic and tread. ;)
And do we trust the experts to get it right?
No.
That not-251 pic is a perfect example of what's been said here, minor changes in ambient light or a different camera can make a huge difference.
Exactly, but also the equipment that records the image.
As you can see from the photos, the two pics were taken only seconds apart, so everything (condition, lighting, weather, and so on) is the same except for the cameras and the person taking the photo.
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Very interesting. My sister is a professional artist, and can analyse which basic colours will produce any particular shade. When I showed her the paint chip for so-called Panzer Grey, she mixed it without any blue. I could never replicate the colour, however. I think I also prefer the more blue-ish shade as well, which is why I'm not really satisfied with the Vallejo colour I used last time (like the Rubicon Kubelwagons above, it's ended up rather dull looking). Ultimately the precise shade comes down to personal preference.
An even more difficult colour is olive drab. Every paint chip points to it being brownish, but it looks better on models if it's more of a green. Perhaps I'm also influenced by the Squadron/Signal books Ripley mentioned. I guess that should be a different topic though.
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More Rubicon Models in Panzer Grey.
Looking good, but IMO, it looks like they went a little overboard with the chipping on the Panzer IV. In the other pictures this is more obvious.
http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=544.msg10333#msg10333
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/PzIV-F1%20180728-10_zpsvwo5lrab.jpg)
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Has anyone tried AK's Panzer Grey Modulation Set?
If so, comments?
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Below is a picture of a German motorcycle painted in Panzer Gray which can be found at the Beachhead Museum in Anzio, Italy.
I asked if the motorcycle was restored and/or repainted. I was told that it's original. I had to ask because while the paintwork on the motorcycle looks old, it is in good condition. I was expecting to see more scratches, scuffs, and chipping of the paint work, but just because it doesn't have lots of scratches doesn't mean its not the original factory paint.
It was too dark to get a good picture, but after getting permission and getting help in opening all the nearby window curtains to let in more sunlight, I took this picture.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/g5t3hf8cv/IMG260.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/g5t3hf8cv/)
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A while back a friend was telling me about a color mixture he uses for Panzer Grey paint.
Using Tamiya paints:
Two parts XF-63 German Grey
Two parts XF-18 Medium Blue (grey-blue in color)
One part XF-02 Flat White
I have been trying it out, and overall its seems to work pretty good as a base color, and I just wanted to make a note of it just in case the information can be useful for others.