Panzer II Plastic TS1 Primed 200810

[Rubicon Models]

The large rear storage bin on the fender was added by British troops after capturing the tank in North Africa. The tank ended up at the Museum in Bovington and was photographed by the Tamiya research team and released as a kit in the 70s. The German versions of the Panzer II only had the side bin. The turret box was a local built item and only added to about 7 tanks of one company serving in North Africa.

Can you please "mark out" which bins so that we can look into the matter?  Thanks!!

[ripley]

The bin on the left rear fender ( marked in blue ) is a add on from another Panzer II . It is actually a right side fender bin ( red ) , which had been put on backwards ( front of bin facing rear ). Notice also the space ( green ) for fender support . The left bin has the space as well but no support underneath it . This is , except for the 70s Tamiya model kits and various toys that aped it , a one of a kind vehicle . Notice on these pictures of the Bovington vehicle how the bin doesn't fit flush on the fender . As I said in my other post , this tank was captured and sent to Bovington where it was photographed by the Tamiya crew , who thinking it was accurate ,designed a model of it . There are lots of Tamiya slip ups in the 70s but that's a story for another day . Suffice to say the bin was added from another wrecked / damaged Panzer II  ( by the Germans or maybe the British after capture ? ) , Panzer II only had 1 large fender bin when it left the factory

[Tracks]

Fenders:
Speaking of fenders, how common were the fenders depicted in the CAD drawings used on Panzer IIs? I ask because looking at actual combat footage and pictures of Panzer IIS, it looks like that some had these types of fender, but also it looks like there is a more standard type of fender, which also seems more common in photos and footage. Anyway, just something I noticed.

[ripley]

 Could you post a picture of the type your talking about ? I'll waffle on anyway , lol . Standard as in smooth , no anti skid ? I would think , just for safety alone , all flat fenders should have non skid . Climb on a wet sheet of metal in hob nail boots , recipe for disaster . I've seen some flat front and rear curve pieces of the fender , probably early models before they had any feed back from the field ( Pzr I - IV )  . The office wienies always design stuff they think the troops would want , but its the troops that have to use it and  devise there own way of doing things . IE : early Pzr IV had a fold down step on mid left side of tank for the crew to mount . By the F & G it was gone , why ? Because the crews found easier ways to get on / off the vehicle than all climbing up on one little step .
Also , a close up  view of the Bovington  Pzr II fender shows that it is  18 anti skid diamonds wide , the CAD is 8 diamonds  wide . I would think making the anti skid to scale would end up giving us a smooth fender , certain things don't scale down  very well .

[Tracks]

Could you post a picture of the type your talking about?

It is a bit difficult to cut and paste from my books, but here is a good example from Voyager Models. Even better because with very visible PE parts, you can better see what I am talking about. These fenders are very much like the ones shown in my books. Obviously there were several different types of fenders, but which ones would be the most common?

[ripley]

Both the Bovington Pzr II F and this one from Russia have flat fender panels in the same place ,, right rear . The Bov one has as issued  stowage boxes situated there, I'm guessing since that length had stuff attached to it , you couldn't stand on it , no need to go to the extra work / expense of non skid . The Russian one has a flat fender too , but its missing a lot of its on vehicle gear . Early Pzr II versions , A , B , C would have non skid as they didn't have large boxes there



Pzr II C - picture from Prime Portal , non skid on right rear fender

 

[Tracks]

The problem of looking at existing WW2 tanks is that sometimes we do not know how accurate they are. For example, it is widely known now that the Bovington Panzer II has errors, and this was passed onto early model kits. However, using primary sources (actual WW2 photos and footage) has its issues as well because crews tended to make modifications. However, there is no need to worry about incorrect added parts (like fenders) because the original was rusted out or missing.

My main reason for bringing this topic to the forum was to ask how common was it for Panzer IIs to have full anti-slip (non-skid) fenders as shown on Rubicon Models' CAD drawings? I asked because most Panzer IIs I have seen in WW2 pictures and combat footage do not show full anti-slip (non-skid) fenders.

[ripley]

The pictures I have found in the books I have and pictures found on the net , ( that is the few that are taken from an angle where the top of the fender is visible) , show, to me , that the early versions had full non skid and the later ones with the revised stowage ( fender boxes ) had sections of plain fenders .  And as the Germans tended to implement new equipment / parts into the assembly line before old parts were used up , we can assume there will be a variety of differences . Anyone out there got the Panzer Tracks or Nuts & Bolts books on the Pzr II to give us the definitive answer ? While I like the Pzr II , it's not a vehicle I'm going to build more than a couple of , so It's the cheaper Squadron or Osprey books for me . For what it's worth , Dragon has released their early 1/35 Pzr II model  with full non skid and their later II F kit   with sections of smooth fenders , and as I've heard /seen no negative comments about it on  various scale  model sites , I'll assume the kits are correct . The only thing I can see wrong with Rubicon's fenders ( aside from the left fender rear box on the F  ) is that it should be no tread under the right rear fender boxes on the F , the B/C vehicle fenders look right .

[EarlyWarGamer]

I ordered the Panzer Tracts 2-1 on the early Px IIs, and will report back what that has to tell us (when it arrives).  Of course, if anyone else has it, they can report in now and save me the trouble.

I strongly suspect (as ripley stated) that early versions had full non-slip, and that later versions had only partial.  The thing is, I would bet that the Ausf covered by this kit (the A, B and C) probably all had full non-slip ... because the bulk of them were built prior to full-on war, and the need to conserve materials.  I would guess that after seeing combat in Poland, and after full war was declared, they may have at that time decided to save on materials.  But I doubt that any of the A, B and C models that rolled off assembly lines, had only partial.

That is just me, guessing.

As I said, when I get the book, I will research what is there, and check out any photos or text on the matter, and report back.

[ripley]

As long as they get rid of that extra box on the left rear fender , I'm OK with the F as shown . What little non skid is on the right rear fender could possibly be removed, sanded  off or made smooth with Green Stuff .  Or just left alone , except for a couple of hobby buddies most folks I know couldn't even tell you it was a German tank never mind what's wrong or missing

[Jaeger]

Photosniper 3D 0025
Panzer II & Luchs by Samir Karmieh and Lukasz Gladysiak
Page 5 top image:  "Pz.Kpfw. II Aus C... The rounded front hull part was typical of this version.  It was finally changed in the Aus. D and later models. [Kagero Archive]"
Would there be rounded front hulls for the Aus. A - Aus. C? 

The Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. D (Schnellpanzer) has a different engine deck, will this build be possible?  The Aus. E?
 
Page 6 bottom image shows a captured Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. F with a "Rommel chest" and no stowage box on the left rear fender. 
So does the photo on page 19 show another North Afrika Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. F without a left side stowage box.
Would a second stowage box be an option with the left rear fender designed with the jack in place?

[ripley]

The round nose was standard  on the pre production  a , b  models  ( small road wheels )  ,  the c model had the standard 5 larger road wheels , then came the A , B , & C versions , each  letter designates changes in thickness of armor and  the corresponding thicker vision ports , the squared off nose was added 20mm plates to the round nose , 70% of the c, A,B,C production of 1100 tanks got this ,. The D/E tank was a different design with 4 larger road wheels ( only about 50 made ) , production switched over to the Flamingo flame thrower tank and then redesigned again into the Marder II ( SdKfz 131 / 132 versions ) {Encyclopedia of German Tanks -Chamberlin, Doyle }
The turret box was  unit built in North Africa , it was not a production item and wasn't seen anywhere else  .



The box on the left rear fender was a taken from the another tank . Aside from drawings based on the Tamiya kit  and pictures of the Bovington Pzr II when it was captured , I've seen  no other pictures of a tank with this feature . Note the space under the box in the top picture , this was to clear a fender support . The is no support in the area of the space in the second picture because the box wasn't designed to go there .

[Rubicon Models]

Some updates:

We have looked into additional references on the Panzer II, including Panzer Tracts and several other Russian publications.  We are quite sure anti-skid patterns on the fenders are "standard" factory feature.

Also, you are correct on the incorrect rear left fender stowage box.  The box is an extra add-on, so this is not a big issue.  We probably will still include it in the kit with an extra footnote about its origin.  The rear fender should have a jack instead.  We might add some extra stowage (for example, fuel can rack) if sprue space allows.

As for the rear turret stowage box, it is also a separate piece.  Hence not a big issue about historical accuracy.

Comments?

[ultravanillasmurf]

If the Bovington box and the turret bin are optional that is great.

Are you going to be able to add the jack

[ripley]

That's great .