Author Topic: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret  (Read 6858 times)

nheather

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T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« on: August 26, 2019, 03:08:50 am »
Wonder if anyone can advise.

I’m a little puzzled with the top of the turret, as it doesn’t seem to match most photos I have looked at.

Things that seem wrong

1) the circular hatch opens the wrong way.  On the model it is hinged towards the front, whereas, photos I have looked at have it hinged towards the back

2) the AA gun mount is in the wrong place.  It should be in front and to the right of the circular hatch, but instead it is behind the hatch.  I wonder if this is a symptom of (1) the hatch opening the wrong way

3) the observation device on the front left of the turret (looking forward) is present.  But in the photos I have seen, there should either be an identical observation device on the front right or nothing at all.  The model has neither, just a raised up indent.

My initial thought is that I am no expert and Rubicon must have done a lot more research than I have, but then I look at photos and they simply don’t match the model.

Can anyone clarify, are these really fundamental errors or were there different designs that I have not encountered in the photos.

Cheers,

Nigel
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 03:10:36 am by nheather »

ripley

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 09:36:32 am »
The AA mg hatch was able to rotate so it could face either way
[/u

Some Russian 2 man turret tanks ( BT-5/7 , T-26 , T-34 ) had the option of having a periscope on the loader's side of the turret . There were various types of periscope mounts - 1: hollow tube with hinged cap ( T-26 , early T-34 )  ,2: tear drop ( mid / late T-34 ). 3: low ( copy of British periscope of lend lease Valentine / Matilda ) found on T-34/85 , JS tanks
[url=https://postimg.cc/jDtZGTx0]

IRC the loader's periscope mount  on the Conical turret is the missing the hinged cap .  Also if no periscope mounted , there should be a cover plate bolted over the hole



Sorry , no idea why the pictures got shuffled around
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 09:39:17 am by ripley »

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 03:37:45 pm »
Hi,

I think Ripley has covered this, but here is my one new pence.



As Ripley mentioned, the commander's hatch rotated with the P40 AA mount (fitted from 1937). NVG 218 page 13. It is probably the improved version as in some of the photographs/plates the AA mount appears opposite the hatch hinge.

The "Allied Armored (sic) Fighting Vehicles" book by George Bradford has a T26S on page 92. This has the hatch opening forward.

On page 19 of NVG218 there are British troops inspecting a model 1939 with the commander's hatch open forward, page 46 there is a photograph of a Finnish tank with the hatch to the front.



Commander's periscope.
Yes, there might be an issue there.

I drilled out the hole and inserted a shaped piece of plastic rod.
NVG218 page 40 has a 1938 without an obvious commander's periscope. It might have Ripley's version 3.

Page  36 has a model 1938 with the loader's periscope with the open top. My guess is that the periscope had been liberated for use on a tank not stuck in  a bog.

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 03:46:27 pm »
One other thing you might notice - the aerial mounts on the turret roof.

I am not convinced that all of the later turrets should have the two aerial mounts. It is noticeable on page 36 that the example has one of them, but is an ex-radio tank (and has the mounting points on the turret sides as well).

As you can see I removed the one missing from the photograph.


I might remove both for my next late model T26.

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 10:52:20 pm »
From my extensive research of the T-26, I can only say the turret top piece supplied is perfect for a 1939 model. As others have pointed out, the commander's hatch hinged at the front, had a mounting ring for the AA MG that rotated, so it could be brought to bear in many locations.

The missing commander's periscope is a different matter.  Due to supply issues, there were not always two present ... but from what I remember, when there was only one present, it was typically the commander's. Ultravanillasmurf has solved that issue nicely in his 1939 version (above).

nheather

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 11:01:55 pm »
From my extensive research of the T-26, I can only say the turret top piece supplied is perfect for a 1939 model. As others have pointed out, the commander's hatch hinged at the front, had a mounting ring for the AA MG that rotated, so it could be brought to bear in many locations.

The missing commander's periscope is a different matter.  Due to supply issues, there were not always two present ... but from what I remember, when there was only one present, it was typically the commander's. Ultravanillasmurf has solved that issue nicely in his 1939 version (above).

Thanks for the info.  A couple of questions following the responses

1) You say the turret top is good for the 1939 version.  Does that hold true for the 1938 version too?

2) Periscope - which side is the commander and which the gunner?

It’s a shame that the model doesn’t have a separate hatch ring so you can set it in whichever position you want.

Cheers,

Nigel

ripley

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 11:42:46 pm »
 Commander could be either gunner or loader . Many 2 man turrets had the loader as commander , IRC the M3 Stuart and some Brit tanks as well . Hard to take a snap shot at a target if your half out of the hatch looking around / commanding . In the loaders position ( right side with AA mg mount ) , the TC could load the shells by feel ,( ammo  not large or heavy and easy to grab ) so he could have his head out or peer through his periscope , so he could dirrect the gunner on to target 



red - wall mounted 45mm ready rounds
blue - co ax ammo drum racks
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 11:49:05 pm by ripley »

nheather

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 03:50:57 am »
Many thanks for the info.

Are you saying that you are confident that the turret top is correct for a 1939 but you are not sure about a 1938.

I debated over the 1938 and 1939 and decided to go with a 1938 as I thought that the Germans were more likely to encounter a 1938 when they first invaded in 1941.

Whether that it right or not, I have shot my bolt, because the under-turret superstructure is now glued in place.

Cheers,

Nigel

ripley

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 05:48:10 am »
With over 11000 vehicles built with 50 odd variants ( Tanks , Flamers , SPGs , Tows , etc )  its going to be a real pain to figure out all the changes . Not to mention the Russians only consider the tank had 3 distinct versions , twin turret , flat side turret and conical turret . All other stuff like radio , rear turret MG , spot lights over main gun , were just options that your tank might or might not have . According to Wings & Wheels Publications ( T-26 Variants part 1 ) the 1939 version " should " have  the conical turret with the  sloped armor upper hull and armored cover over the engine air intake . It "shouldn't " have the spot lights , the rear MG and no AA MG ring . In reality , pictures show some tanks still had " some " of these things , so I would say build it as you like because you are going to find a picture of one out there somewhere






check out   www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/weapons.htm    lots of great pictures and scale drawings
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 05:53:21 am by ripley »

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 01:18:51 am »
I am positive that the turret top shown on Ultravanillasmurfs build is PERFECT for a 1939 T-26. The turret top has a round hatch with hinges to the front of the tank.

Ripley posted two blueprints for the T-26, both with Russian writing. The first says 1938, and the second says 1940. The one that says 1940 is one of several blueprints I have found for the 1939 model. Clearly shows a round hatch with hinges to the front.

Regarding crew positions, the driver sits on the right hull (when looking forward). The loader sits in the left of the turret. The gunner sits in the turret right, behind the driver. Usually, the loader was also the commander.

Which brings us to the periscopes. The T-26 "should" have two, one for the loader, and one for the gunner. But two were not always present. Plenty of photo evidence to show that sometimes only one was present.  When only one is present, it is often the loader - remember this is ALSO usually the commander - who gets a periscope. The gunner has a sight so doesn't "need" a periscope. Those are for looking around the battlefield.  The sight is used to aim the gun.

Regarding the turret top that ultravanillasmurf "fixed" by adding a rod to the cylinder. That is of course fine, and now that tank has two periscopes. But there is a lovely photo in Light Tanks (Mikhail Baryatinskiy) on p35 that shows a T-26 Model 1939 in the Kubinka Armor History Museum that shows a turret with only one periscope, on the left, for the loader/commander.  If you google the museum name and T-26 you will find it.

So will that turret top work for a 1938 build? Yes. In T-26 Variants Part One (Miroslav Baric, Mike Collins) the photos are arranged by model type. And there are lots of photos that show forward hinged hatches open on the 1938 and 1939 models. There are also plenty of photos showing only the loader/commander having a periscope in the later models of the T-26.

I will say it again ... the parts combos allowed by the Rubicon kit allow one to build with reasonable accuracy any version of the T-26 except for what I refer to as the Model 1936. They missed having the proper turret top piece for that model year. But you have the parts to build all the others.

Like I said in another thread, while T-26s were being built, they would start to make a change in production, and then later, that was considered the new way to make them. So (for example) the 1938's were built with AA MGs on the turret top. By the time the 1939 model was "official" those were no longer being added. But can you find some 1939's with the AA MG? Yes you can.

The Model 1938 was almost entirely build WITHOUT the ball MG at the back of the turret. But not always. Can you find a Model 1938 with an MG at the back of the turret? Yes.

You also have the modernization of many T-26s. Those built int he early 30's were sometimes pulled in for engine overhauls and transmission replacements, and given whatever "new model" equipment and changes they could get. So you will find photos of what look like oddball T-26s. An earlier hull (evidenced by the placement of the headlight or horn or tools placement on the hull) but with a newer turret.

About the only bit of kit that is firmly fixed in time is the "rumble seat" cover for the rear engine deck. That change was a result of having T-26s fighting during the Spanish Civil War.  The cover was made standard to the Model 1939 production.   So if you are building any model of the T-26 with the intent of fielding it in a game that takes place before 1939, and you include that cover piece ... you are historically incorrect.  But once that was added to the Model 1939, it started being retrofit to earlier models of T-26 as well. So a Model 1936 or 1938 (fighting the Germans in 1941) could certainly have the rumble seat air intake cover.

Happy building!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:00:33 am by EarlyWarGamer »

nheather

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 03:11:23 am »
Thanks for all the info, really useful.

Sounds like I could have gone with the 1939 then, but I’ve glued the 1938 superstructure on now.

So for the absent periscope it sounds like I have three options

1) leave it as it is, it’s a wargaming model
2) add a curved top to make it match the other one
3) cut it off and glue a flat disk in its place

Cheers,

Nigel

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 03:35:30 am »
Those are three valid options!

ripley

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 07:33:39 am »
The blue print of the 1938 model has the rotatable AA hatch , as does the 1939 drawing . The 1940 blue print has the non moveable  opening forward hatch . The Rubicon kit has the AA hatch with the gun , unfortunately the gun mount is molded  further back on the roof instead of on the hatch rim , an easy fix by removing the mounting point , (which looks like another radio mount ) , then scratch a thinner part to mount the  gun to hatch . I think with a little sanding and putty you could convert the AA hatch to a non rotatable version
What are you guys using for the missing spare wheel , screw jack and tools ? I found some HO scale jacks in my parts box ,and I have a variety of tools from older 1/48 kits , but no luck on finding a wheel

nheather

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 10:01:13 am »
What are you guys using for the missing spare wheel , screw jack and tools ? I found some HO scale jacks in my parts box ,and I have a variety of tools from older 1/48 kits , but no luck on finding a wheel

I’m in two minds about this.  Yes I was a little surprised at how little there is on the main chassis.  When you open the box and see the mass of sprues and parts the first thought is that it is going to be incredibly detailed.  But then you realise that the majority of those parts are for turrets and you will only use a handful of them.

So in my opinion it is great that there are so many turret options to choose from, great that the model is simple, so quick to build and robust to handle on the table top, but a little disappointing that there isn’t a little more detail - as you say, a spare wheel and a jack would have been nice.

Cheers,

Nigel

ripley

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Re: T-26 1938/1939 Conical Turret
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 11:42:34 am »
The tool layout molded on the fenders matches the 1938 blue print , but its missing the saw from the left front fender and a 2nd fender stowage box . The tools got shuffled around on the 1940 model with a stowage box being deleted and a second shovel added . I haven't really checked but I'll assume the earlier versions ( 1931 , 32 , 33 , etc ) also had stowage moved about . As much as I want / like separate tools , it would be crazy for Rubicon to make  a model with  indents under the fender to drill out for each and every version of tool placement , never mind having to draw up the plans for that . I feel the omission of the spare wheel , jack and 2nd stowage box are larger "sins " . But I'll get over it as this kit gives us , dare I say , an unprecedented amount of turret / hull options . I notice on the 38 blue print that there is a spare leaf spring for the suspension , now where can I find something that looks the part ?
yellow - leaf spring . purple - stowage box . red - hatchet . blue - shovel & pry bar . green - saw