Author Topic: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213  (Read 13623 times)

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #210 on: November 21, 2017, 08:57:04 PM »
And there should be no vision or pistol ports on the turret doors ,  sides and rear , I assume the picture is just a CAD reuse and you knew that  ;D

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #211 on: November 21, 2017, 09:38:04 PM »
Well spotted - I didn't see the vision ports were still there.

Rubicon said these were "final".  Hopefully it's not too late to fix these errors.

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #212 on: November 21, 2017, 10:15:37 PM »
 I still think Its just reusing the CAD . That's what they did when they showed of one of the redesigned Sherman kits . The actual plastic was right  .

Rubicon Models

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2017, 10:23:08 PM »
There might be some compromise because the turret will be used for multiple variants (from Ausf G to J) complicated by sprue space.  But we will look into further updates as long as the changes are minor.

;)

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2017, 10:38:30 PM »
IRC , it was the removal of the aux motor for the turret ( no small exhaust ) , and the longer L48 gun that make it a J model . The removal of vision / pistol ports , the dual exhaust , one piece commanders hatch , etc were all design changes to save assembly time and money witch started before the J came out  . You see some  of  these changes on  Gs & Hs . As well some Js still had ports , split commanders hatch , even old large exhaust (but no small ) , really a mishmash of parts which goes along with the German doctrine of using up old parts on newer models of vehicles .  Maybe Rubicon could give us 2 set of turret doors ,one with , one without ports . The ports on the turret side and rear could be easily removed by the modeller if so inclined

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #215 on: November 22, 2017, 12:00:21 AM »
I think these details are pretty important.  No point giving so much attention to things like sideskirts then skimping on the accuracy of the turret.  Features like Pilsen can be moulded on, so they can be sliced off for earlier version.  I guess the cupola splash guard would be a separate piece.

Rubicon Models

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #216 on: November 22, 2017, 12:28:22 AM »
@Pinky, mind you if you can post some references here. We can discuss further with our designers over the final production meeting on the Panzer IV tomorrow!  ;)

From what I could recall, these were discussed at earlier meetings; and as @ripley stated, many of these features actually was present or missing on earlier variants as well.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 12:30:24 AM by Rubicon Models »

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #217 on: November 22, 2017, 09:18:53 AM »
None of the ( few ) books I have that include info on the IV J actually show a picture of a 100 % J version .  It should  have the cast  idler wheel , 3 not 4 return rollers ,some had the all steel road wheels ( like Brumbar ) vertical dual exhausts , the extended hull side with the hole  for the towing shackles ,  the close defence  weapon ( smoke launcher ) on the roof as well as the already mentioned deleted vision ports etc . and of course the steel mesh  Schurzen . Seems to me its  a full kit all on its own , IMO  it  might not be a profitable model to produce as way too many things will be needed to back date a pure 100 %  J to other versions and its the multi version kits that seem to be a favorite with the gamers  as well as the model guys , at least in my area . I know I can get by without a full J version , I already have 7 panzer IV  G/H s   :-[   You can find pictures of preserved IV Js in the   Saumur Museum, as well as the Armour Museum in Israel ( captured from Syrians ) but again both have some but not all features  ::)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 12:35:45 PM by ripley »

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #218 on: November 22, 2017, 02:09:47 PM »
I confess to some amusement. I think Pz IV Ausf J is a desirable weapon on the wargames table. However you can fight any period of the war without it. It's a pity the same can't be said for Panzer IV Ausf C, a vital and missing variant early in the war Rubicon don't appear interested in. I'll crawl back in my box now!

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #219 on: November 22, 2017, 11:32:18 PM »
@Pinky, mind you if you can post some references here. We can discuss further with our designers over the final production meeting on the Panzer IV tomorrow!  ;)

From what I could recall, these were discussed at earlier meetings; and as @ripley stated, many of these features actually was present or missing on earlier variants as well.

I think you have some of the references, such as Spielberger's "Panzer IV and its Variants".  On pages 69 and 70 are photos of Ausf Js which clearly show the Pilzen and cupola splash guard, as well as the lack of vision ports.

Ripley' point was that the vision ports were eliminated before the Ausf J started production, so most if not all Ausf Js would not have them.  Spielberger says (page 66) that these changes were made pre-Ausf J, and there are photos of Ausf Hs without the vision ports (and with the splash guard).  Remember also that the mesh sideskirts were a late feature, so vehicles fitted with these would normally have the other late features (including the reduced number of return rollers, although that's not a big deal).

The rectangular panel on the ventilator cover just seems unnecessary.  I can't find any photos of actual tanks with this feature, and it will be a pain to have to carve it off.  Apparently this cover was larger on the Ausf J, which is why there is a semi-circular section cut out of it to make room for the Nahverteidigungswaffe.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:51:42 PM by Pinky »

Rubicon Models

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #220 on: November 23, 2017, 01:53:06 PM »
- the turret roof should have a splash-guard around the cupola, and the vain sight in front of the cupola should omitted.
- the turret roof is also missing the Pilzen - the 3 sockets for mounting a frame to remove the engine. 

These two omissions had been fixed in the 3D drawing.  The splash guard is particularly tricky because it distorted the shape of the copula design of the model.  Still need some fiddling to get it looks right at this scale.


- the rectangular piece on top of the turret ventilator is presumably meant to be a poison gas detection panel.  If this was fitted there would also be a similar fitting on top of the main gun recuperator housing.  They were raised, not flat.

This we are not sure... Have checked all our reference drawings, could not identify the location!


We used several references to the Ausf J, main ones as follow:

1) Panzer Tracts No 4 - Panzerkampfwagen IV
2) Squadron / Signal Publication - PzKpfw IV in action
3) Spielberger - Panzer IV & Its Variants

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:01:11 PM by Rubicon Models »

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #221 on: November 23, 2017, 03:00:54 PM »
Okay, so how will you handle the removal of the vision ports?  Will these be separate/optional parts?

This we are not sure... Have checked all our reference drawings, could not identify the location!

The photos of actual vehicles available are very murky.  Here is a WiP model by Tom Cockle which shows the gas detection panels (white plastic card) on the ventilator cover and recuperator housing.  Again, I'd suggest just eliminating this.
 


Rubicon Models

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #222 on: November 23, 2017, 03:34:18 PM »
These are some of the blueprints we used for the Ausf J... they are from Panzer Tracts No 4.







Our 3D drawings should be very close to these!

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #223 on: November 23, 2017, 04:17:20 PM »
Your design is indeed very close - but your 3-D designers obviously missed the Pilzen and splash guard, which are clearly shown in the blueprint.  They've also included all of the vision ports, even though these are clearly omitted in the blueprints.

As with all blueprints, these are ultimately just someone's best depiction of the subject based on what they had.  I've explained the feature on the ventilator cover (possibly the artist who made the blueprint didn't know what it was - I didn't either until I spent some time checking).  Very few photos of Ausf Js show anything there, so why include it?  Anyway, it's up to you.

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #224 on: November 23, 2017, 09:06:29 PM »
Well that's strange , both Tom's model and the blue print show the commander's hatch would open to the right , while most pictures I've seen show it opening to the left side . The more you think you know.. ...no wonder it's difficult to get a handle on the J model
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 09:11:48 PM by ripley »