Rubicon Models

Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on January 04, 2017, 05:42:39 PM

Title: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 04, 2017, 05:42:39 PM
This is a new project similar to our "M4 Sherman Digital Library".   We have retired
our Panzer IV Mid-War (280010) kit during Q4/16, since then we had been creating
the all new "Panzer IV Digital Library".  Here is a few pics based on the Ausf G.  We
will add and subtract features to make other Panzer IV variants as we go along...

Besides what is described in our pics below, additional objectives as follow:

- Create common sprues that can be used with all variants to save cost
- To keep retail price as low as possible
- Hopefully be able to cover production models from Ausf D to J
- Will try new moulding techniques to create better products
- Will use experience gained to create the "Panzer III Digital Library"

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20IV%20161222-01_zpsnkj4eoqw.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20IV%20161222-02_zpstlr6kif4.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20IV%20161222-03_zpslahtazbl.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20IV%20161222-04_zps6hbszani.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 04, 2017, 06:17:30 PM
Nice.

There is also the Stug IV option.

I was unimpressed with the other company's Panzer IV, hopefully this will be much better.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 04, 2017, 06:37:30 PM
Looks good.  We had a thread earlier about how you'd break this up into separate kits.  You could probably do it with just two.  I'd really like to see the Jagdpanzer IV. 

I think the tracks are a bit of a problem, as the tread pattern is quite distinctive but difficult to replicate using the one-piece approach.

 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Marcin on January 04, 2017, 08:13:16 PM
Great news! I'd like to see earlier options, like ausf. D, but I understand that in this kit there is no place for them.
Good job! Can't wait to see more :)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 04, 2017, 08:51:30 PM
Great news! I'd like to see earlier options, like ausf. D, but I understand that in this kit there is no place for them.

Ausf D is the early "short" pre-series of the Panzer IV before the standardisation with the Ausf E.  A total of 243 were built, the last being delivered in early 1940.

Depending on the number of parts on the final product, we will do an Ausf D; and depending on the layout of the spure, we will see how this will bring us!


Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: chrismanu87 on January 04, 2017, 10:56:55 PM
FINALLY! I was waiting for this since months ago!Thanks
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Marcin on January 05, 2017, 01:35:51 AM
Ausf D is the early "short" pre-series of the Panzer IV before the standardisation with the Ausf E.  A total of 243 were built, the last being delivered in early 1940.

Depending on the number of parts on the final product, we will do an Ausf D; and depending on the layout of the spure, we will see how this will bring us!
WoW! I haven't count on that at all! It's amazing idea.
Some of this 243 builds were on Africa front. I can't wait :-)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: chrismanu87 on January 05, 2017, 07:16:39 AM
Ausf. J will be very cool!Can't wait for it ;D ::)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 05, 2017, 07:15:51 PM
It's a pity from my point of view Rubicon can't go back as far as the Ausf C. According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2 by Chamberlain and Doyle 138 were produced from September 1938 until August 1939. Later marks were too late to serve in 1939 Poland. According to the same source the Ausf C wasn't withdrawn until 1943 and therefore a legitimate opponent for many years to come.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 05, 2017, 08:50:30 PM
It's a pity from my point of view Rubicon can't go back as far as the Ausf C.

Sure, but trying to cover every variant can be more trouble than it's worth.  Better to cover the main variants properly.  The Ausf D would cover France, Barbarossa and the early North African campaign. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 05, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
It's a pity from my point of view Rubicon can't go back as far as the Ausf C. According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2 by Chamberlain and Doyle 138 were produced from September 1938 until August 1939. Later marks were too late to serve in 1939 Poland. According to the same source the Ausf C wasn't withdrawn until 1943 and therefore a legitimate opponent for many years to come.

It is not that we can't but Ausf A to Ausf D are early "short" pre-series of the Panzer IV before the standardisation with the Ausf E.  The earlier chassis had different hull and roadwheel design, plus narrower track width.  Basically a new kit per production model...  The Ausf D is the closest we can get without making it a total separate kit.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 06, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
I'm sure both Pinky and Rubicon are 100% valid in their comments. Selfishly I would have liked to buy a legitimate Rubicon opponent to my Warlord 1939 Polish tanks. I had hoped their continued use in later years of the war would have made them a commercial proposition but that is clearly Rubicon's call.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 06, 2017, 09:32:09 AM
You could always convert / kit bash a standard plastic IV kit . I did that to one of the BA IVs , its not perfect , but I got the staggered drivers plate , kit bashed the long exhaust out of T-34 fuel tanks and various plastic pipe .  Added and removed details on the turret and hull , as well as messing around with the glasis plate hatches . The only part I'm still having trouble with is the single turret side doors , just can't seem to get two the same  ::) . So I left it with the later 2 door side hatches , for now . Really not too worried about back dating  the drive sprocket and idler wheel , any of the guys at the LHS who have seen it , don't know the difference any way !
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 06, 2017, 10:34:03 AM
I dip my lid to you ripley. Just reading your list tells me I'd be way beyond my level of incompetence. It is note worthy that you were prepared to go to this trouble to get to the variant you wanted. Of course you can't tell the difference applies to all but the most pedantic among us with most variants. You only have to look at the discussion on the Sherman variants to see how important it is to some to get it right. The very fact the differences are too great for Rubicon to produce the real thing (Ausf C) is enough to make me realise it is a task beyond my ability. Congratulations to Rubicon for intending to do as many variants as they can.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 06, 2017, 10:50:36 AM
I'm sure both Pinky and Rubicon are 100% valid in their comments. Selfishly I would have liked to buy a legitimate Rubicon opponent to my Warlord 1939 Polish tanks. I had hoped their continued use in later years of the war would have made them a commercial proposition but that is clearly Rubicon's call.

I totally understand - we all have particular vehicles that we'd love to see in plastic from Rubicon, but which are probably not going to sell well enough to justify the investment.  In my case, it's the Italian M13/40, but there have also been calls for Japanese and French tanks.  I suspect these - and early war armour generally - fall into the 'niche market' category.  1/56 is already quite a specialised scale, so I expect that Rubicon need to be pretty hard-headed about which kits to target.  That's why, inevitably, we're seeing them focus on German subjects (i.e. the BMW & sidecar, Maultier, Kettenkraftrad, various Paks and multiple half-track upgrade kits).
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 06, 2017, 11:06:50 AM
Fair enough Pinky. Perhaps when everyone in Rubicon is rich they might produce some Italian and 1939 vehicles just for us!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 06, 2017, 12:56:51 PM
Tyro , you could kit bash yourself a C with minimal skill and effort, its just a matter of adding to or taking away pieces of plastic . You just have to decide how far you want to go . Get your self Squadron / Signal  Panzer IV in Action book #12 ( about $15 US ) .Compare the drawings of the C to the plastic  G/H kit . What has to change ? Lots is just cosmetic and won't really be noticed , even by FOW gamers  ::). You need a  flat drivers plate , no machine gun  ( radio ops  vision port from BA plastic Pzr III  kit ). You need single turret doors ,( still trying to get mine right ) cupola moved back a bit and a bump out added to turret rear ( green stuff ), turret rear pistol ports  , You need to have solid engine hatch doors  ( fill with green stuff ) , and you need to make the long muffler and skinnier tube muffler ( T-34 fuel tanks and Plastruct tubing ) . You could add the raised brake access hatches to the glacis plate , but if you stow extra track there , no one will notice .And little things like remove turret roof ventilator and add air flap and signal port ( not really nessessary  ) See really not hard with the right intel to build from , the first kit bash is always the hardest . Its gets so much easier as you try more . I'm to the stage where I am opening the Pzr IV / T-34  driver hatches as well as Pzr III / IV turret side doors , loader hatches on T-34 /85 and the rear escape hatch on my BA Panther . Ok , I have been building mostly 1/35 scale kits for 40 plus years , but I've done the same to them back in the day when you had to kit bash to get the version of the tank you wanted . Dragon wasn't around in the 70s to give you every single  version of the Tiger ever built like they are today .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 10, 2017, 02:31:36 PM
I know I won't change any minds but I couldn't resist doing a little research on the breakdown of the Panzer IV variants early in the war. It appears that all 211 built before September 1939 were available at the outbreak of war. They were 35 Ausf A, 42 Ausf B and 134 Ausf C. There were no later marks at this time. A 63% chance Polish forces encountering Panzer IV's were engaged by an Ausf C. The Germans admitted to losing 19 Panzer IV's during the campaign that were beyond repair. If evenly applied across the various marks that leaves 122 Ausf C at the end of the campaign.

For the invasion of France, Belgium and the Netherlands the German forces had 278 Panzer IV's (another source says 280). None of the variants had been retired at this time. Although sources I'm looking at don't clarify whether all existing early tanks were engaged in the battle they do suggest nearly all were, including Ausf A and B. I think it's reasonable to suggest all Ausf C were engaged as the last of them had only come off the production line six months earlier and served for years into the future. On this basis 44% of the Panzer IV's available for this campaign were Ausf C. 

Therefore I submit anybody wanting to game either earlier period should also be keen to see a model of Panzer IV Ausf C.

As I say I don't expect to change any minds but I found this interesting. Somebody might have some more definitive numbers.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 10, 2017, 03:13:04 PM
Oops, production of Ausf C stopped 8/9 months earlier not 6
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 16, 2017, 01:50:19 PM
For those that share my interest in the early war period I have found some more information on Panzer IV numbers.

After the invasion of Poland another 45 tanks were built before the years end. None in September, 20 in October, 11 in November and 14 in December. The number 45 I've read in a couple of places but the monthly breakdown comes from a publication called German Armour 1939-1940 by Eric Grove. All of these were the new Ausf D. To reach the number of Panzer IV's available on 10 May 1940 at least another 41 Ausf D must have been built in the months leading up to 10 May. That is 192 survivors from Poland (likely 122 Ausf C as in earlier post) plus another 86 Ausf D to make 278 total. Although we know the Ausf A's took part in this campaign if any were excused there may have been a few more Ausf D.

These production numbers look very small for the task about to be undertaken but it appears German production was heavily skewed towards production of 37mm armed tanks at the time. 1940 production included 862 Panzer 111 and 367 Panzer 38(t) compared with only 268 Panzer IV's.

I've read that the book Panzertruppen by Jentz reports 97 Panzer IV's were lost during this campaign (77 in May and 20 in June). 35% of those initially engaged. If we assume the losses were proportional across the variants that would include some 43 Ausf C reducing them to 79. The 86 Ausf D would be reduced by about 30 down to 56 plus any new production in that 6 weeks.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that Ausf C continued to be the most numerous Panzer IV up until the Armistice. In Eric Grove's words "this was the major single PzKpfw IV type in service in Poland and France".   
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 16, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
This is very interesting (I presume you've read other authors' comments on the accuracy of German 'on strength' reports, upon which 'Panzertruppen' as based).

I share your interest in early war armour.  I think the issue is simply cost versus reward.  The 'Blitzkrieg' period simply doesn't attract the same level of interest as NW Europe, the Eastern Front and the Desert War.  That shouldn't be the case - arguably it's just as interesting from a technical perspective, and more interesting from an operational/strategic perspective.  I think it probably just comes down to the enduring attraction of the late war AFVs (particularly German types).  As a result, apart from a few one-offs (and vehicles that served into the latter part of the war, such as armoured cars), the early war period was generally neglected by kit manufacturers until relatively recently.  A vehicle like the Panzer IV Ausf C would, if done properly, require a lot of different components to a later Panzer IV.  That's a significant investment, when the aim would be to have as many common components as possible.  I'd guess that most wargamers who wanted to game that period would be quite happy with an Ausf D (even if it was less common) - or even an Ausf E - as all they're really going to want is a Panzer IV with a short 75mm that basically looks the part.   

Hopefully, as Rubicon expands, they will have the resources to focus on this important period, and do it justice with a balanced range of French, British and German subjects.  Rubicon's style is well-suited to these early vehicles, as most of them had narrow tracks which are easily produced in one piece - there will be very little loss of detail.  The subjects I'd love to see would include:
- Pzkw 38t
- Pzkw II
- SdKfz 232 8 rad armoured car
- Somua S35
- Panhard 178 armoured car
- A13 Cruiser
- MKIV Light Tank
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 16, 2017, 06:28:26 PM
Pinky makes a number of good points.

I suspect that most players use the Bolt Action rules, and that does not differentiate between B to F, so they would be happy with any howitzer armed Panzer IV (Armies of Germany V1 page 47).

I have not read much on the early war period, but from what I have read the medium tanks made up about 10% of the Panzer divisions. Players of the early war period would probably be more interested in the light tanks.

I often wonder if the lack of interest in the early war period is psychological (as Britain had few if any land victories prior to North Africa) or availability. It may be a combination of the two.

There are no plastic infantry except Blitzkrieg Germans and no plastic tanks (though Our Gracious Hosts have teased us with a T26 http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=310.msg4876#msg4876)

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I wonder if a package of vehicles and figures could kick start interest in the period.

But this is wandering off topic.

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 16, 2017, 09:03:39 PM
What early war ? The war didn't start till Dec 1941 according to the Yanks ....lol .  Yes there are quite a few interesting early war vehicles that I would like at least one model kit of .  Maybe if one of the gaming companies release an early war specific set of rules , this era might get more attention . Will the Dunkirk movie help or hinder ?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 16, 2017, 09:43:01 PM
One issue with the 'Blitzkrieg' era is that it's quite hard to represent in wargaming terms (at least in 28mm).  You need rules that properly represent factors such as crew efficiency, effective radio communications, reconnaissance, situational awareness and reliability - factors that generally worked in the Germans' favour.  More fundamentally, when one side's main advantage is superior tactics, how do you represent that on the tabletop, and still have an enjoyable game?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 16, 2017, 10:04:15 PM
What early war ? The war didn't start till Dec 1941 according to the Yanks ....lol . 
I remember a tour guide telling me that.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 16, 2017, 10:22:52 PM
Yes there are quite a few interesting early war vehicles that I would like at least one model kit of .  Maybe if one of the gaming companies release an early war specific set of rules , this era might get more attention . Will the Dunkirk movie help or hinder ?
Rules and figures.
One issue with the 'Blitzkrieg' era is that it's quite hard to represent in wargaming terms (at least in 28mm).  You need rules that properly represent factors such as crew efficiency, effective radio communications, reconnaissance, situational awareness and reliability - factors that generally worked in the Germans' favour.  More fundamentally, when one side's main advantage is superior tactics, how do you represent that on the tabletop, and still have an enjoyable game?
Good points.

As you say, most of the hardware is comparable.

You would have to have rules about tank crews enjoying the full protection of their armour or being able to see their environment and assist their infantry colleagues.

Maybe tanks can only act if shot at or after a command roll.

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 17, 2017, 09:41:41 AM
Tank combat would be very hard figure out . There are battles where one tank  a  KV II , held up an attacking Company for a day  or or a Char B destroying  a line of  enemy vehicles in a short time . When used properly a single  Char B or KV II could really ruin a Panzer III crew's  day . True these are not the typical stories you hear about the battles of the early war but they are historical fact .
(https://s23.postimg.org/pogb5gjs7/kv2_dead.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pogb5gjs7/)
This KV held up elements of 6 Panzer Div at Raseiniai June 1941.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 17, 2017, 09:55:28 AM
Yes, and in game terms those kinds of encounters are easier to replicate in a wargame, because a vehicle with good paper stats is generally going to defeat vehicles with inferior stats.  But in most cases, Char Bs were defeated; the crew had poor visibility, the commander had too many tasks, and they weren't used well.  They were also vulnerable to a shot through the side ventilator. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 17, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
There are good points here that probably deserve a topic of their own. Namely the rulesets we use to play 28mm WWII games and why we buy the models we do, which in turn influence Rubicon to make the choices they make.

Briefly, I think of Bolt Action and Chain of Command when thinking about rulesets for this period and scale. Both are intended for games set in 1939/1940. For Bolt Action Warlord have available an almost comprehensive set of Polish resin vehicles. I agree with Pinky there maybe short comings with these rules concerning effective radio communications, reliability etc but I'm not sure other holes can't be picked in them for different periods of the war for different reasons. Whether they can be improved on probably depends on your appetite for realism versus playability.

Back to the Panzer IV discussion and Pinky's comment on whether the numbers in German reports can be believed. I tend to give credence to evidence where it is believable and in the absence of more plausible evidence to the contrary. Fundamentally I think Eric Grove's conclusion that the Ausf C was the most common Panzer IV up until the French armistice is correct without evidence to the contrary.

I sometimes think I am the equivalent of the much disparaged Napoleonic Army button counter. Although I have some idea of the various Sherman hulls and main armament I wouldn't have a clue about the size of various hatches and where they go. In the unlikely event I knew I wouldn't criticise or point out to someone they had the wrong variant. However if I wanted to build an army with Sherman's I would want to do the research and buy the correct variant. Otherwise I would know it was wrong. Likewise it wouldn't be right to invade Poland in 1939 with any old short barrelled Panzer IV. It wouldn't be cricket! (small descent into farce here).

Of course Rubicon need to do what makes them strong. In which event we might get more of the vehicles we'd like to see eventually. I totally agree with all the vehicles on Pinky's 'love to see' list and would add on the German side Pzkw I and Pzkw 35(t). On the Allied side there is a long list.

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 18, 2017, 10:05:12 AM
Back to the Panzer IV discussion and Pinky's comment on whether the numbers in German reports can be believed. I tend to give credence to evidence where it is believable and in the absence of more plausible evidence to the contrary. Fundamentally I think Eric Grove's conclusion that the Ausf C was the most common Panzer IV up until the French armistice is correct without evidence to the contrary.

I just read a book which points out that German units routinely overstated their strength returns, so Jentz's numbers may not be as reliable as we all thought (at least in the latter part of the war).  It doesn't undermine your point about the Ausf C.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 19, 2017, 09:03:07 AM
That's very interesting Pinky. Can you give us the name of the book. I'll see if it is available and at what price.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 19, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
It's a point made by Zaloga in a couple of books - Zaloga has taken upon himself the task of correcting the (in his view) false impressions created by some Panzer-obsessed authors.  It's also mentioned by Forczyk in his books on armoured combat on the eastern Front.  I would recommend these, except that I though the 2nd volume was a bit rushed compared to the 1st.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 19, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
Thanks Pinky. I'm interested in what the motivation would be. I remember reading somewhere at least one commander of the SS Divisions at Arnhem had told his superiors before the battle many of his tanks were disabled and under repair. He feared they were going to be taken off him if they were known to be operational. Not sure how true that is.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 19, 2017, 03:01:38 PM
I'll see if I can find the reference.  You'd think that, as in your example, a unit leader would understate the number 'runners', for the reason you mention and also so he could some replacements. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 19, 2017, 10:02:00 PM
So Forczyk's point is that Jentz's numbers overstate the actual number of tanks available.  He says that the percentage of total write-offs in 1943 was only 12%, but the actual state of combat-readiness was far lower.  According to Forczyk, strength returns included non-operational tanks, which were kept with the division rather than sending them back for depot-level maintenance.  This was because the replacement system was chaotic and irrational, and units never knew when they would get tanks back from repair.  From 'Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1943-1945'.  As I said, this doesn't alter your point about the Ausf C.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 20, 2017, 05:49:20 AM
That does make sense. Particularly the long grind in the East and later elsewhere. It occurs to me the same pressures on commanders probably didn't apply in the early campaigns in Poland and France. Firstly the campaigns were short and very mobile so badly damaged vehicles couldn't have kept up with their units. Secondly once the campaigns were over there were many months for the repair centres to do their work before they were needed again. In those circumstances it was probably in commanders interests to report honestly and get repairable vehicles fixed.

 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 20, 2017, 06:55:21 AM
Pinky, I did note that you weren't saying this particular discussion related to the early war period and the Ausf C. By the way I do concede the Panzer IV Ausf C wasn't at Normandy, or later at Arnhem or in the Ardennes. Although (a little tongue in cheek) perhaps a couple of forlorn examples were dragged out of training establishments during the collapse of the Reich! A nice little scenario for a wargame.         
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 20, 2017, 09:55:55 AM
That does make sense. Particularly the long grind in the East and later elsewhere. It occurs to me the same pressures on commanders probably didn't apply in the early campaigns in Poland and France. Firstly the campaigns were short and very mobile so badly damaged vehicles couldn't have kept up with their units. Secondly once the campaigns were over there were many months for the repair centres to do their work before they were needed again. In those circumstances it was probably in commanders interests to report honestly and get repairable vehicles fixed.

That's right - this point was being made in the context of the early 1943 period.  But the German replacement system was terrible from the outset (mostly because of hopelessly inadequate production), and even in the 'Blitzkrieg' period the Panzer Divisions suffered from a gradual erosion in strength as tanks were knocked out or simply wore out.  Apparently that was a major factor in the infamous 'halt order' as the Germans reached Dunkirk.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 20, 2017, 10:08:15 AM
By the way I do concede the Panzer IV Ausf C wasn't at Normandy, or later at Arnhem or in the Ardennes. Although (a little tongue in cheek) perhaps a couple of forlorn examples were dragged out of training establishments during the collapse of the Reich! A nice little scenario for a wargame.         

There were some early model Panzer IV's in Normandy - 21 Panzer had 21 of them.

An Ausf B (apparently - also sometimes identified as an Ausf C - it should be dark yellow, but it might be a very faded and weathered dark grey):

(https://s23.postimg.org/i8kpogqw7/Ausf_B.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/i8kpogqw7/)

An Ausf C of 21 Panzer Division (this one is quite well known and features in the Osprey Panzer IV title - note that it's probably dark grey with a dark yellow overspray, not overall dark yellow with green camo):

(https://s30.postimg.org/67vlcwkd9/Ausf_C.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/67vlcwkd9/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 20, 2017, 07:11:41 PM
Wow, that's interesting. It would appear the Ausf C would have wider appeal than even I thought. I'd read the survivors retired during 1943. Perhaps they did and made a comeback. The survival of the Ausf B is even more remarkable considering only 42 were built in the first place. I hope Mr Rubicon is aware of this. The 'C' might move one notch up the priority list. The gaming world doesn't appear to lack people interested in Normandy 1944.   
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 20, 2017, 09:34:07 PM
IRC the IWM has a Pzr IV D hull with a long 75 mounted in the turret  , captured in Normandy from a training unit rushed into combat . So the older versions of vehicles  did see some combat ( SdKfz 222 in Berlin 45  :o )
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 20, 2017, 10:49:31 PM
This one?

http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=156

I am not sure if I have any photographs of it.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 21, 2017, 01:07:42 AM
A lot of Panzers were rebuilt and upgraded in the process.  I think that's the origin of the Tank Museum's 'hybrid' Panzer IV.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 21, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
If you look at picture # 4 in the link smurf posted you can see it has the single turret side door and old style commanders cupola . The gun swap would be easy , the internals for the longer L43 or L48 gun rounds would not . There are pictures of similar tank in Encyclopedia of German tanks captioned tank driver school vehicle . Either wa,y for  driver training , and gunner training when the longer guns with anti tank rounds its a cool vehicle . One of the old M3 style wheeled Shermans , that served in North Africa was knocked out in apr / may 45  near Berlin so all sides had vehicles that spent a long time in use
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 22, 2017, 07:14:50 AM
I think you're right ripley. All nations would have old equipment to some extent. Although those under the greatest stress and lacking the massive production capability of the US would be more likely to be placed in this position.

It occurs to me games would be more interesting if they occasionally included a variety of the old and new. Particularly if historically correct. Unfortunately I think we tend to be driven by points values and the like and the need to get the greatest bang for the buck in the effort to win.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 22, 2017, 12:42:38 PM
I think you're right ripley. All nations would have old equipment to some extent. Although those under the greatest stress and lacking the massive production capability of the US would be more likely to be placed in this position.

The Germans did this a lot - especially in the final years.  So you see Tiger Is with mis-matched components, usually serving in scratch units.  But the US did it too - a lot of Sherman's were rebuilt, upgraded with later pattern gun shields, appliqué armour etc, and sent back into service.

Quote
It occurs to me games would be more interesting if they occasionally included a variety of the old and new. Particularly if historically correct. Unfortunately I think we tend to be driven by points values and the like and the need to get the greatest bang for the buck in the effort to win.

I agree entirely.  But it seems to be a minority who play miniatures games principally for the visual enjoyment of having interesting models on the tabletop.  This is an issue that I think Rubicon needs to keep in mind.  Most wargamers would prefer a fairly generic Sherman with fully swappable turrets.  With Rubicon's discontinued M4A3, there were more complaints about not getting 2 complete turrets than there were about the inaccurate 76mm turret.  By producing multiple Sherman kits, but with limited swappable options (i.e. you can only build the model one way), they risk appealing more to modellers - in a scale primarily identified with wargaming.  It's a difficult balancing act, because of course they are under constant pressure (including from many of us on this site) to provide better and better detail and accuracy.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 22, 2017, 04:48:32 PM
You both make exceedingly good points.

As a "non gamer" (more due to other commitments than anything else) I tend to build what interests me (it also leads to long construction times as I have no dead lines). I do use army lists to add some structure to what I build.

If you build to game then there must be some reward to choosing to build stuff that is aesthetically pleasing but in game terms is pretty lame. I know that some competitions award points for both composition and authenticity.

In the old GDW rules Command Decision, the writer lamented the use of nicely painted Stuarts to locate the Tigers by blowing up.

On the options point, there is always a bit of annoyance over stuff left on the sprue after the model is built. Sometime there is nothing that can be done without reducing the options - all the left over running gear on the Tiger and the JPzr 38(t) are good examples.

The PSC kits leave almost complete hulls on the sprue.

On the other hand there are the bits of turret that Pinky mentions. The Sherman and T34 being good examples. Sometimes this can be a bit petty - another manufacturer's Churchill lacking a bin and three bits of detail (the Crusader does not count because there are bits to fully build two out of three turrets in the kit).

Manufacturers need to balance options, buildable options and accuracy.

They may gain kudos from a kit that builds a tank with two different turrets but lose the sale of a second kit. Okay, accuracy wise the finished model with the second turret is less likely to be accurate but the gamer is less likely to be bothered with that when the money can be spent on something else.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 23, 2017, 07:00:22 AM
There appears to be different camps within the hobby. At one extreme I remember listening to a podcast in which the host was lamenting the fact the plastic guns that came with the game looked like anti-tank guns and were being used as howitzers (or was it the other way around). His guest confessed to not knowing what the difference was and what's more didn't care. They were to him mere gaming tokens.

I think I am at the other end of the spectrum and I'm looking for something near Tamiya accuracy with concessions to parts count for ease of construction and robustness to enable constant handling on the wargames table. Hence my desire for a genuine 1939 Panzer IV.

I suspect I am in the minority but perhaps a large minority. I note there is a thriving small industry in providing quite expensive wargaming terrain. Including very specific items like Pegasus Bridge in Normandy. I can't imagine these companies producing these if the interest is small.

Fortunately Rubicon have a demonstrated interest in producing a high quality product. Their Panzer IV Digital Library is a case in point. I'm sure it would have been easy to continue producing their original Panzer IV but they think they can do better and they are to be congratulated for that. I think if Rubicon produce products near Tamiya quality there is no reason why they can't capture some of the top end of the market with more of their products ending up in dioramas and looking good in display cabinets.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 23, 2017, 10:39:29 AM
Tyroflyer - I'm pretty much with you.  I have always been a big fan of Rubicon's original philosophy, which was to provide simplified but accurate wargaming kits.  While (or perhaps because) I've been building armour kits for over 35 years, I don't want to glue on every single wheel - I really like the way Rubicon have simplified the tracks and other features.  But the simplified tracks seem to be the feature that makes some people choose Warlord over Rubicon; they tend to dismiss it as looking 'toylike' (the lack of crew figures is another factor, but Rubicon are including figures now).  Oddly, these same people are prepared to overlook the shortcuts that Warlord take (such as solid roadwheels) which arguably are just as noticable.   

I agree that Rubicon could be the 1/56 equivalent of Tamiya.  I think they struck almost the perfect balance of options, detail and ease of assembly in the JagdPzr 38t and Crusader kits (and the simplified tracks don't result in any real loss of detail).  I think these are the best plastic kits in 1/56 scale available (I know they don't include crew or stowage, but Rubicon will soon have all of that covered with separate sets).  They are detailed enough for a modeller, and accurate, versatile and easy enough to build for most wargamers.  The forthcoming M4A3 is a bit more of a compromise - lots of features for modellers (and personally I'm very happy that it includes the extended end connectors and the HVSS suspension), but less options that are useful to wargamers.  Rubicon slightly fudged the tracks by adding more detail to the front, but not the back.  I don't think that's going to appease the modellers.  I'm not sure what the answer is here - it will be interesting to see what they do with the tracks on the forthcoming Panzer IV range.  If the detail could be enhanced (perhaps by slide moulding) then these kits will be enormously popular on both sides of the fence.

We seem to have come full circle, and are thus back on topic...
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: ripley on January 23, 2017, 01:13:17 PM
I don't think any company making kits in a game scale will ever satisfy every camp , but Rubicon , IMO , comes pretty close . As a model builder I would like more kits of  tanks  I like , weather they be a single version  kit or  a 2 in 1 with alternate turrets . Even a 3 ( maybe 4 ) in one kit like Rubicons Tiger , Stug , Hetzer and Crusader kits . Yea , lots   of " useless " bits left over maybe  , but then again , who knows which kit in the future might get up graded by steel wheel Tiger tracks , the Crusader 1 turret or an early Stug roof . Keep up the good work Rubicon .   If I want a version bad enough , I kit bash it my self  ::)
(https://s24.postimg.org/g5fhiv8ht/IMG_20170122_215407467.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/g5fhiv8ht/)

(https://s28.postimg.org/rbzc2hjsp/IMG_20170122_215458279.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/rbzc2hjsp/)
 Plastic Warlord Panzer IV G/H turned into a D . Still haven't got the turret side doors figured out , but I'm working on it  >:(
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 23, 2017, 01:40:18 PM
Thank you for all the comments - had taken notes and some being followed up by our studio team.

Being a design studio, it is difficult to please everyone, including the bossman!  While we have the freedom to create what we wanted to a certain degree, we do have a lot of constraints throughout the whole process.

Design Phase - With the available references and data, trying to consolidate components from several variants into a single "vehicle".  Also need to check historical photo with museum/collector vehicles.  Sometimes (which is rare) we have to omit features or try to fake it to make the kit multi-variant.

Prototype Phase - Depending on the number of sprues per kit, we have to make good use of limited space to fit everything onto these sprues.  Some parts needed to be combined or simplified for mould making.

Mould Making Phase - Mould release angle is our biggest enemy.  All parts are designed with mould release angle in mind.  Facing of parts played an important role on how fine details each part can be.  Making figures require a totally different approach and mould making process.

Other factors affecting production or alterations include:
- overall production cost per project
- extra cost to amend design
- extra cost to change/modify mould
- importance of making amendments
- time to market

For example, a multi-slide mould is an excellent solution to create very nice one-piece track; but that will increase our total production cost by over 30%... just for that two particular parts!  Then come the critical decision - should I have better tracks or an extra sprue for all the other variants?  Truck cabin is a totally different story, a multi-slide mould improve assembly experience and model integrity; but to keep cost down, accompanying sprues had to be limited to one or two at max.

This is the type of design & production considerations we faced everyday.

;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 23, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
Thank you Rubicon for your post. I hope you forgive us for attempts to nudge you in the direction we want as individuals. I recognise I don't know the cost of certain decisions and you can't please everyone. Hopefully as time goes on more and more kits will become available and the gaps will be fewer.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 23, 2017, 05:03:12 PM
For example, a multi-slide mould is an excellent solution to create very nice one-piece track; but that will increase our total production cost by over 30%... just for that two particular parts!  Then come the critical decision - should I have better tracks or an extra sprue for all the other variants?  Truck cabin is a totally different story, a multi-slide mould improve assembly experience and model integrity; but to keep cost down, accompanying sprues had to be limited to one or two at max.

The Rubicon approach works brilliantly for the truck kits.  I don't think anyone has any issue with the level of simplification.

Where you have a range of kits which have virtually identical tracks and running gear (like the Panzer IV - and any spin-offs, like the JagdPanzer IV and Wirbelwind), would it perhaps be worth the additional cost to use slide moulding?  Any differences in detail can be covered by providing different outer wheels/sprockets/idlers.  [Edit - on second thoughts, this is probably getting too far into Rubicon's internal costing etc, which really isn't something they should feel they need to debate on a website! :-[ ]
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 30, 2017, 01:02:19 AM
Going back to the discussion about upgraded early model Panzer IVs, I found this photo of a row of refurbished Panzer IV Ausf Ds.  Apparently, starting from July 1942, these early models received the L/48 gun, Ausf G wheels and tracks, and turret Schurzen.  Some ended up in Italy and one was captured in Normandy.

(https://s27.postimg.org/4jcqt4tq7/IMG_0041.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4jcqt4tq7/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 30, 2017, 01:55:25 PM
Pinky, I'll forgive Rubicon if they don't include this one in their kits!

Is there any book you know of that includes details of upgraded tanks, ie what was done to them and to how many. In your example my reference simply says 'Later in 1943, several Ausf D were refitted with 7.5cm KwK L/48 for use with training and replacement units.' Potentially several could mean a substantial number (or not).
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 30, 2017, 03:09:15 PM
I don't know if this information exists.  According to Spielberger, "all vehicles that were sent back to Germany to be repaired during the war were always brought up to the latest technical level.  It was quite possible to install improved assemblies, additional armour and more powerful weapons in these older vehicles.  A precise technical identification was thus made considerably more difficult.". I take it from this that the available records don't distinguish between new and rebuilt tanks.

Apparently  21 unmodified early model Panzer IVs served with 21st Panzer in Normandy [edit: but see below].
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: tyroflyer on January 31, 2017, 06:10:11 AM
21 Panzer Div appears to have accumulated a lot of old equipment including French vehicles from 1940. When you say it had 21 old unmodified Panzer IV's do you mean Ausf A to E? Is the composition of the 21 known?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
Post by: Pinky on January 31, 2017, 12:26:53 PM
Panzer Regiment 22 initially had 70 unmodified Hotchkiss tanks in I Abteilung and 54 up-gunned Somuas in II Abteilung.  The Hotchkiss were replaced with Panzer IVs.  Most of the Somuas in II Abteilung were replaced with 21 Panzer IVs but 23 Somuas were retained (it was supposed to get Panthers but they hadn't arrived).  It is these 21 replacement Panzer IVs that we're talking about.

Some sources say that all of these Panzer IVs were old models (hence my earlier post).  Jentz's 'Panzertruppen 2' says there were "21 PzIV(kz)" in June 1944.  But I did some more digging.  According to Lefevre's 'Panzers in Normandy Then and Now', "there were around half a dozen ancient Ausf Bs or Cs in II Abteilung of Panzer Regiment 22 which were most likely used for training or as OP tanks but were nonetheless sent into action.".

Panzer Regiment 22 also had Panzer IIIs serving in HQ units - according to Jentz there were "4 PzIII(75)", although Lefevre says there were 6.  Presumably they were Ausf Ns.  21st Panzer also included Sturmgeschutz Abteilung 200, which fielded self-propelled 75mm and 105mm guns based on Hotchkiss and Lorraine chassis.

Overall, I'm inclined to believe Lefevre's numbers because Jentz doesn't mention any French tanks in service with 21st Panzer Division, which seems wrong.  Also, Lefevre references a contemporaneous organisational chart - but maybe the French vehicles were dropped by June?  Perhaps someone else has more info.  I've only found photos of 2 of these old Panzer IVs, including the ones I posted above.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 31, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Thanks for the comments and discussion on the Panzer IV.  Had been interesting read.  Will definitely take them into considerations!

After a long silence on updates, here is the latest drawings on the Ausf D turret...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Turret%20D%20170131-02_zpsiuempvp2.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Turret%20D%20170131-03_zps1gv3vamu.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Pinky on January 31, 2017, 04:07:15 PM
So the Ausf D is going to be part of the Panzer IV range?  That's great!  Along with the forthcoming Rubicon SdKfz 222, it's another reason to think about doing some Afrika Korps vehicles.

The turret looks very nice - I really like the separate side doors.  The AA mounting wasn't introduced until later, however, so it wouldn't appear on an Ausf D.  There were some quite prominent bolts on the cupola, although maybe these were omitted for moulding reasons.

(https://s24.postimg.org/6xs9btva9/Pzr_IVD.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6xs9btva9/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: tyroflyer on January 31, 2017, 04:39:49 PM
I agree. This looks first class.

I can't help noticing this turret looks very similar to the Ausf C. I think with an alternate gun mantlet and side hatches (I think the vision ports weren't as deep) it could be built in this version as well. An expert will probably point out I'm wrong.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 31, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
There were some quite prominent bolts on the cupola, although maybe these were omitted for moulding reasons.

You are correct, those bolts had to be omitted to eliminate moulding issues to save production cost.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 31, 2017, 05:17:25 PM
Looking good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: chrismanu87 on January 31, 2017, 10:07:05 PM
It looks sooo good! I can't wait to see the Ausf.j ::)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Ballardian on January 31, 2017, 11:07:47 PM
Creating these digital libraries will undoubtedly be hugely useful & I hope that they're eventually extended to the whole range.
 I'd be curious as to how Rubicon might handle the Ausf J's mesh schurzen, (if indeed they decide to) as I'd have thought it'd be a bit fine at this scale for easy plastic molding & while easier in PE, it'd probably be rather fragile for a wargaming model.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 31, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
I'd be curious as to how Rubicon might handle the Ausf J's mesh schurzen, (if indeed they decide to) as I'd have thought it'd be a bit fine at this scale for easy plastic molding & while easier in PE, it'd probably be rather fragile for a wargaming model.

TBH, we are still having a big debate over at the studio on the Ausf J mesh schurzen... we now have 2 to 3 possible solutions, one not so realistic but practical, while the other one is realistic but very expensive to produce!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Pinky on January 31, 2017, 11:56:24 PM
Is the mesh Schurzen really worth including?  It's very rarely seen in photos (although admittedly the Germans weren't taking as many photos by the time it appeared).  If it's not done properly then it's likely to look a bit rubbish.  If you were thinking about options to include in a late model Panzer IV kit (presumably covering the Ausf G, H and J), then you could consider including a turret for one of the anti-aircraft versions.  Just a thought...
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: chrismanu87 on February 01, 2017, 12:21:44 AM
maybe they can make it with only turret's schurzen it will not be so bad
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 01, 2017, 12:24:32 AM
Is the mesh Schurzen really worth including?  It's very rarely seen in photos (although admittedly the Germans weren't taking as many photos by the time it appeared).  If it's not done properly then it's likely to look a bit rubbish.

That's exactly part of the debate, lol.  We are still looking into it, we still have not reached the Ausf J.  Is a long way...


If you were thinking about options to include in a late model Panzer IV kit (presumably covering the Ausf G, H and J), then you could consider including a turret for one of the anti-aircraft versions.  Just a thought...

That was already in the plan!  ;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Pinky on February 01, 2017, 12:51:37 AM
That was already in the plan!  ;)

I suspected as much, as you the same thing so successfully with the Crusader.  A late Panzer IV with the option of building a Wirbelwind would be quite a kit!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: ripley on February 01, 2017, 05:00:18 AM
IRC shurzen in true 1/48 scale looks like coffee filter material if you make it exact . You would have to make the holes bigger than 1/56 so the eye could actually see it ,  not to mention the problems you might have plugging the holes up when painting . That being said I have some plastic window screen that looks the part ( although not to scale  :-[ ) which I intend to use on the scratch J I'm working on
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on February 01, 2017, 05:13:34 AM
Would a plastic frame with a photo-etch mesh work as a first approximation, and a photo-etch frame for nearer scale?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: ripley on February 01, 2017, 06:03:16 AM
The supports on the hull were the same as the H . It was the bar on the actual panels the changed , instead of a C channel or a L shaped bar it was a pipe , so round plastic rod would work . IRC there was a thread on missing lynx about it  a few months ago .discussing how big it would be in 1/35 scale . ( IRC about 3mm diameter ). Plus the thread talked about using an IKEA frying pan slash guard for the mesh. So is pretty small in 1/35
(https://s30.postimg.org/epr4q6rm5/pz_iv_j_wreck_zpscmpdhiuh.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/epr4q6rm5/)

(https://s27.postimg.org/n65i369pb/pz_IV_rear_zpswjryht7w.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n65i369pb/)
Now that I'm home from work I can post some photos . The mesh looks  real small , maybe 1cm square ? That won't fly in 1/56 scale , have to be over sized . Also note the extended hull sides to incorporate the tow rings on the J in the top picture
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D Turret 170131
Post by: Pinky on February 01, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
I seem to recall that Nitto (anyone remember them?) provided 'mesh' Schurzen with their 1/76 scale Panzer IV.  Basically a criss-cross texture on solid plastic.  It didn't work. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 170201
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 01, 2017, 10:37:18 AM
We will worry about the "mesh" Schurzen when we come to it... now with an update on the Panzer IV hull in general.

Here is an almost finished Ausf F1 for preview...
NOTE: The turret mount MG was a mistake, forgot to remove it from the render!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-01_zpsn4hnf6s1.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-02_zpsmgfpwizx.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-03_zpsb5r4kuvd.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-04_zps5c2talaw.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-05_zpsyqiervkd.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170131-06_zpsfkepqk4u.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 170201
Post by: ripley on February 01, 2017, 11:38:09 AM
Looks very good . In the 3rd drawing down  ( right side ), you show the gas cap flaps . They were only on the left side of the tank . Fuel tanks on left floor , ammo stowage on right . BA goofed on their plastic IV and had caps both sides , I of course, removed the right ones  ;D
(https://s30.postimg.org/l8xdt4dyl/IV_2.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/l8xdt4dyl/)
The fuel tanks are under these ready rack bins . On the right side you have ammo under the ready racks
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 170201
Post by: Pinky on February 01, 2017, 12:01:59 PM
Looking good.  Again, no anti-aircraft mount was fitted at this stage.

The antenna mount on this drawing is for the later version with a rear-mounted antenna.  The antenna mount for these earlier versions (which folded down into the trough) should look like this:

(https://s30.postimg.org/kpwqz9ktp/antenna.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kpwqz9ktp/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 170201
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on February 01, 2017, 05:02:18 PM
Looks good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 170201
Post by: chrismanu87 on February 01, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
Pinky is right,f1 hasn't an mg
anyway,nice work!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Link fixes 170222
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 22, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Fixed the missing links from previous post.  Seems like Photobucket had a server restore, and some of the image uploads were deleted.  Please report any missing links, and we will try to fix them.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 03:40:55 PM
Over 200 Pz IV Ausf D were produced by Krupp-Gruson, from Oct 39 to Oct 40,
and had been used in various theatres into late war. Similar to what we did with
the M4 Sherman, this is part of our Panzer IV Digital Library project.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20D%20170224-01_zpshwziabtv.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20D%20170224-02_zpsrfb88meo.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20D%20170224-03_zpsz2mp2tg5.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20D%20170224-04_zps67euxych.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Yaquir on February 24, 2017, 04:19:18 PM
Looks great!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Pinky on February 24, 2017, 05:49:52 PM
Agreed - looks really good.  One down, Ausf E to J to go!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: tyroflyer on February 24, 2017, 06:04:21 PM
Looks good. Unfortunately I can't attack Poland with it in September 1939. I wonder whether it would be possible to modify it via an expansion kit to make an Ausf C. I think 3 small pieces would correct the turret (new mantlet and side access hatches). The hull machine gun would need to be removed and replaced with a plate that is flat with the driver's. The real tanks were a centimetre different in width (nothing in 1/56 scale).

Brings me to the wider question whether even more vehicles could be made via an expansion kit. Perhaps command/observation tanks or perhaps parts to make a submersible for river crossing. Perhaps metal parts could help here.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 06:24:11 PM
Agreed - looks really good.  One down, Ausf E to J to go!

The drive sprocket is still the wrong type.  We will add new drive sprockets and rear idler wheels once the main hulls are done!

We also have the F1 done too... will post later!

;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 06:29:56 PM
Brings me to the wider question whether even more vehicles could be made via an expansion kit. Perhaps command/observation tanks or perhaps parts to make a submersible for river crossing. Perhaps metal parts could help here.

Expansion kit will depends on development and production costs.  Sometimes is not the best solution or interest of RM.

A good example is our SdKfz 250/251 series.  It takes 4 base kits to "justify" all the expansions that we had done; don't think some will ever make the money back!  Is more of a trail project to see how cost can be distributed among various sub-projects.

Being that said, we are also looking into small volume production - resin or metal...  But development time is the same; and production cost (per unit) probably much higher too!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: tyroflyer on February 24, 2017, 06:52:26 PM
Well thanks for considering it Rubicon.

I think there are quite a few things that could go on an expansion. Even spare lengths of tracks and/or wheels could be added to a number of other Panzer IV specific items in an expansion kit.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 07:01:13 PM
I think there are quite a few things that could go on an expansion. Even spare lengths of tracks and/or wheels could be added to a number of other Panzer IV specific items in an expansion kit.

Spare parts are for a stowage kit.  It basically takes at least 6 months to get a project finished if there are no surprises; an additional one or two months if there is a major holiday or an overlook during the design phase.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: tyroflyer on February 24, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Ok. No hurry. I thought stowage kits would be fairly generic whereas an expansion could include spares for the tank in question (tracks & wheels often carried but not often for a different vehicle).
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 07:54:59 PM
In April 1941, production of the Panzer IV Ausf F started.  It featured 50mm single-plate armor on the turret and hull, as opposed to the appliqué armor added to the Ausf E, and a further increase in side armor to 30mm.  The main engine exhaust muffler was shortened and a compact auxiliary generator muffler was mounted to its left.  The weight of the vehicle was now 22.3 tonnes, which required a corresponding modification of track width from 380 to 400mm to reduce ground pressure.  The wider tracks also facilitated the fitting of track shoe "ice sprags", and the rear idler wheel and front sprocket were modified.  The designation Ausf F was changed in the meantime to Ausf F1, after the distinct new model, the Ausf F2, appeared.  A total of 471 Ausf F (later temporarily called F1) tanks were produced from April 1941 to March 1942.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20F1%20170224-01_zpsqpmwfyo3.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20F1%20170224-02_zpsvuu1444t.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20F1%20170224-03_zps0huidgae.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20F1%20170224-04_zpsuzdh8fah.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: ripley on February 24, 2017, 09:49:54 PM
Both look really good . The D should have S shaped tow hooks on the fender , you have the later C shaped ones . The F1 seems to be missing the small square shaped muffler ( could be picture angle ) . And jacks on both really need to be bulked up , they look like a small car jack ,  could the image be a cad design limitation ? I've noticed somethings look really off in cad , but are perfectly fine when rendered in plastic
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: H0ffmn on February 24, 2017, 10:30:14 PM
Very nice. Would you package both the Ausf D and the Ausf F together, or seperately?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 24, 2017, 10:50:36 PM
Very nice. Would you package both the Ausf D and the Ausf F together, or seperately?

There is no product yet... still in 3D drawings.  Need to see what all these drawings brought us to!

We still have Ausf E / F2 / G / H / J to do!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: Pinky on February 25, 2017, 10:41:52 AM
Both look really good . The D should have S shaped tow hooks on the fender , you have the later C shaped ones . The F1 seems to be missing the small square shaped muffler ( could be picture angle ) . And jacks on both really need to be bulked up , they look like a small car jack ,  could the image be a cad design limitation ? I've noticed somethings look really off in cad , but are perfectly fine when rendered in plastic

I think the muffler for the auxiliary generator is there - the corner seems to be visible behind the engine muffler.  I didn't notice the tow hooks - good spot.  Everything else looks good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: ripley on February 26, 2017, 01:41:05 AM
Could be there , would be much easier to see detail in a regular front / rear / left / right type drawing  . These 3/4 views in cad always seem off to me . Maybe its me  ::) lol . Good to see Rubicon fine tuning their Panzer IV file , I hope all the versions they want to make do get made as I want one of each , at least 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf D & F1 3D Drawings 170224
Post by: tyroflyer on February 26, 2017, 09:33:53 AM
If they were available I'd buy one of each too. From A onwards! After all, they all served.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 01, 2017, 03:01:27 PM
Progress had been smooth!  Panzer IV Ausf E basically done.  Sprocket wheels will be done last!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-E%20170301-01_zpsjs53kp6a.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-E%20170301-02_zpslyjld3vd.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-E%20170301-03_zpshmime5fr.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-E%20170301-04_zps6d3nqmsx.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 01, 2017, 04:06:54 PM
This also looks good.  It would be great if you could also include an engine deck with the raised louvres, as fitted to desert vehicles - the Ausf E will be popular as a DAK vehicle.  Also - would it be possible to include some of the common stowage items that began to appear on Panzer IVs by this time, such as the spare wheels, tracks and jerrycan racks?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 01, 2017, 04:16:23 PM
It would be great if you could also include an engine deck with the raised louvres, as fitted to desert vehicles - the Ausf E will be popular as a DAK vehicle.

Any good references?  Don't seem to see any info on the Schiffer book.

Also - would it be possible to include some of the common stowage items that began to appear on Panzer IVs by this time, such as the spare wheels, tracks and jerrycan racks?

That will really depends on sprue space.  Will try!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 01, 2017, 06:35:53 PM
I'd like consideration to be given to including these items in an expansion kit. There appears to be a lot of items that could supplement a basic Panzer IV kit.

- raised louvers (DAK) variant
- Pz Bef Wg/Pz Beob Wg
- Tauchpanzer IV
- components to create earlier Pz IV's  :)
- Pz IV spare wheels, tracks etc

I could include the Bruckenleger IV but think that involves too much plastic! Each expansion kit sold would mean at least one base kit sold as well, possibly more.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 01, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
Here is the raised louvre design for a tropicalised Panzer IV.  According to the Squadron/Signal Panzer IV title, these were standard from the late Ausf D onwards, but I don't think that's right as there are photos of Ausf Es with 'flat' engine decks.  This seems to be the initial version (I think this is an Ausf F, but it was the same on the Ausf E):

(https://s4.postimg.org/atovwdbix/IMG_0070.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/atovwdbix/)

(https://s29.postimg.org/bl8ntskab/f1louvres_5.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/bl8ntskab/)

It looks as though the design was subsequently changed, so that both sets of louvres were rectangular and narrower.

Also:

- the Ausf E should have appliqué armour on the superstructure sides on each side of the driver and co-driver.  It might be there (I can see some rivets), but the side visors need to be recessed.

- Ausf Ds were retro-fitted with turret stowage bins and appliqué armour plates, just like the Ausf E.  I hope this can be done with the kit.

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 01, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
Also, the smoke candle rack design on the Ausf D was fixed to the muffler, not the rear plate.  Here's what it should look like (note the removable cover):

(https://s28.postimg.org/xtkjb0jrd/IMG_0071.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xtkjb0jrd/)

(https://s28.postimg.org/557l7shl5/IMG_0072.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/557l7shl5/)

I think the Ausf E's should also look like this.  I see that Dragon's Ausf E has the same smoke candle rack design as yours, but I can't find a photo of that design.

The Ausf F version is right - it was moved up to the upper left corner.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 02, 2017, 03:18:25 AM
You get early style tanks with some, not all , newer features  .The Germans used the new stuff as soon as it arrived  .So if the tropical engine deck covers arrive , they go right  onto the assembly line . If you run out , you use up the older style you still have .There was a discussion about this dealing with Panthers  and Stugs on the Missing-Lynx site  a while ago . 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 02, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
Sure, but the raised louvres were initially a modification for vehicles intended for North Africa.  As you know, some tropicalised vehicles ended up going to the Eastern Front instead, but it looks as though the raised louvres didn't become a production feature until the Ausf F1.

I assume that Rubicon could provide a choice of engine decks, as they did with the M10/M36.  It looks as though an Ausf D/E/F kit would need 3 different engine decks.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 02, 2017, 12:04:02 PM
I guess it could end up being a 3 sprue kit like the Tiger . I wonder if Rubicon really wants to go that route , on a plain Jane tank ( not cool like Tiger  :) ). There's got to be a point where it costs more to add all the features  than they're  to get back in sales . Maybe a Panzer IV detail kit of all little bits and pieces of a  variety of Pzr IV marks  A- J , engine covers , driver's visors , add on armor panels  , Thoma skirts , etc . I'ld be up for getting one , but its the kind of thing released in small numbers in resin , for big bucks in 35th scale , I don't think Rubicon will bite  ;D
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 02, 2017, 12:27:25 PM
Good points, but the Panzer IV is a pretty vital tank, and likely to be popular. 

I'm expecting Rubicon to do at least 2 separate kits - maybe Ausf D/E/F and and Ausf G/H/J (possibly with an optional Wirbelwind turret, given that these later versions weren't hugely different from each other so less parts are needed).  That would be more manageable, and hopefully give them enough space on the sprues for some extras.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 02, 2017, 04:52:08 PM
@Pinky, we are indeed looking into two Panzer IV kits.  Will see how the rest of the drawings going along, then decide.  We have decided to omit or simplify some minor features to cut down on part counts.  Some parts are just too difficult to produce and look real.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on March 02, 2017, 05:02:44 PM
[edited]

I do not know enough about the Panzer IV to comment on any potential kit count or accuracy of the isometric pictures we have seen (they look nice though).

I do understand the merit of Ripley's comments on orthographic projections, they are easier to compare with other sources' drawings. They do however require the viewer to be able to assemble the drawing as a 3D object in their head,  something that is not required for the perspective modified isometric views.

Some orthographic views would be nice, engine decks and hatches are easier to see with a top view and silhouettes often define people's idea of what a particular vehicle looks like.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 02, 2017, 06:30:55 PM
My thoughts are an expansion kit with all the bits and pieces for different variants might not be profitable in its own right but would create extra sales of the base kit to make up for that.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 02, 2017, 10:01:55 PM
The J version alone would require , 2 kinds of exhaust  ( barrel & flame damper ) , 2 idler wheels , ( welded & cast ) , steel  return rollers , . some had the extended hull sides with the tow ring , both full steel and Thoma mesh hull skirts , I don't know if 2 kits will cover the IV
(https://s24.postimg.org/6zmx05xox/pz_iv_j_wreck_zpscmpdhiuh.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6zmx05xox/)

(https://s21.postimg.org/vsdmygqs3/pz_IV_rear_zpswjryht7w.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/vsdmygqs3/)

(https://s21.postimg.org/rda204xf7/EDBA3_DFD_179_D_AA8_B_9_F7_C_2636_F2592_EF7.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/rda204xf7/)

(https://s12.postimg.org/lgtaemsw9/IV_J_late.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/lgtaemsw9/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 02, 2017, 10:12:06 PM
Ausf J is the most troublesome for us because of multiple production versions; we might end up doing only ONE variant instead.  Will see...
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 03, 2017, 12:50:02 AM
It isn't necessary to cover all the variations in the Ausf J.  Just pick one if the more common incarnations that doesn't involve too many additional parts. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf E 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 03, 2017, 07:43:39 AM
All versions of the IV have a few variations depending on where on the production line  was when things were introduced .  The early A-D had different hub caps on the road wheels than the later models . Then there's the different  drive sprockets and idlers , the exhausts , as well as various vision ports  on the turret and hull sides came and went . Just give it your best shot Rubicon . 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 09, 2017, 01:56:23 PM
We spend a lot of time trying to find the most common features of each production variant,
then consolidate them into each type.  Since Panzer IVs were being produced by so many
factories, each had their own changes due to availability of components during the war.  We
can only do so much on this front.

Here is an Ausf F1, with something different...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-F1%20170309-1_zpskawgtiva.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 09, 2017, 06:14:57 PM
I like it.

It is relatively small changes like this I think would make an Ausf C from an Ausf D. Then the entire war would be covered.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: H0ffmn on March 09, 2017, 08:26:05 PM
Wow. I don't believe that I've ever seen a picture of the add-on turret armor like that pictured before. Where did you reference this from??
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 09, 2017, 09:10:33 PM
Called a " Vorpanzer " ( tank with additional armor )
(https://s17.postimg.org/5qhfzsvq3/7268242916_41f41b5523_z.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5qhfzsvq3/)

(https://s30.postimg.org/jb0gnoaot/9d1e3f0508ca4f82803c9bd502d25d07.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/jb0gnoaot/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 09, 2017, 11:31:49 PM
Interesting.  I would suggest there are better things to put on the sprue though.

[edit - I noticed both Ripley's photos show Ausf Es, not Ausf Fs.]
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 10, 2017, 12:45:10 AM
Interesting.  I would suggest there are better things to put on the sprue though.

It really depends on how many variants per kit plus how many sprue and sprue space is available.
This is a digital library, and we are trying to put in as many features into the library as possible in
a single go!  These feature might not be able to make it to the product, but might appear as an
expansion in either plastic or resin form... just like what we did with the Sherman project.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 10, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
I like your thoughts on this Rubicon. I hope you include Ausf C parts! As said before there are lots of bits that could go into an expansion which would encourage extra sales of the base kits.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 12, 2017, 09:56:52 AM
I can't vouch for the truth of this but various internet sites indicate these 'vorpanzer' additions could be found on Pz IV Ausf D, E and F. I suspect they weren't common on any of them but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be available in an expansion.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 12, 2017, 11:40:27 PM
I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 12, 2017, 11:49:03 PM
I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.

This was particularly mentioned (with technical drawings) in the "Panzer IV & Its Variants" book from Spielberger German Armor & Military Vehicle Series.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 13, 2017, 12:22:42 AM
Pzr IV B - D turret armor 30mm , superstructure 30mm  ( plus 30mm bolt on late D/E ). F - turret 50mm , super 50mm . G - J  turret 50mm , super G - 50mm +30mm bolt on  , H-J 80mm .  Not much protection in any of them really . Goes back to the initial design as a infantry support vehicle .   The Vorpanzer stuff might not be for everybody , the same with the Tauchpanzer , submersible details for those underwater traveling  tanks for Operation Sea Lion . Maybe Rubicon can do a Panzer IV  add on kit   with all these weird bits and the late J exhausts , mesh side skirts , etc . I'm sure a few of us modellers  are strange enough to want these weird , low produced tanks , wether there is a large enough market amongst the gamers to make it profitbale is another story . If not, I'm sure one of the after market companies could fill the void . They do make ARV add on resin / metal bits for the Cromwell , Sherman and Panzer III ., as well you can get AM turrets ( Sherman , Panther F , Whibelwind ) and dozer blades . I'm sure its just a matter of time till more AM parts are released
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Swamprat33 on March 13, 2017, 04:02:43 AM
I am only wanting to buy at this time 4 x panzer IV ausf J as this will fill an immediate gap in my collection.

I don't do anything earlier than 1944 currently, but that could change.

I am desperately waiting for the sdkfz 250/9 kit as well, although i did pick up a 251/3 and a 250/1 last weekend.

Tim
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 13, 2017, 04:41:50 AM
Really the only things common to all versions of the  J was the L48 gun and  no auxiliary engine ( and its small exhaust ) for the turret traverse , instead it was  manual .( The space was used for extra fuel tank) . You could find J's with the large barrel or flame damper exhaust , regular production  or extended side with tow ring hull . Rubber or steel return rollers ( 3 or 4 ), some had the side visors on the turret , hull sides and loader's side of the turret face removed . Both metal plate and wire mesh ( Thoma ) side skirts were seen . Most J's had the single piece commanders hatch but not all . Just remove the small exhaust from the late G/H and you have a easy to make J .The difference in a L43 and L48 gun in this scale is mm , so why worry about it ? The rest is just little cosmetic details ( who sees the turret and hull visors hiding behind the skirts any way ?( I posted pictures of various J versions  on Mar 02 page 8 this thread ),
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 13, 2017, 06:50:54 AM
I think the gun length of an L43 is 334mm less than the L48. That's 6mm in 1/56 scale. I think I can spot that particularly if the different vehicles are near each other. Others might like to differ but I'd like to see Rubicon model these different variants. It think it adds depth to your tank collection!

In contrast my reference suggests an Ausf C is 10mm narrower than a D. Or less than point 2 of a millimetre at 1/56 scale. Pretty sure I wouldn't notice that. I don't know whether there is a theory on what the human eye/brain can distinguish. I imagine there is a relationship between the size of the discrepancy and the proportion that is of the object in question.   
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 13, 2017, 08:11:10 AM
Personally I would rather try to match the look of the vehicle I'm trying to model then really go to town , scale wise . I mean the real side skirts were 5-8mm in thickness , how thick are the plastic ones in the kit ? Even using 1mm plastic card they are still too thick for scale  . And , except for a small hand full of rivet counter nerds ( of which I'm one  ::) ) most regular folks don't have a clue what tank I've built ( Pzr III or  IV ) never mind a H , J or N, unless I tell them . And again , except for us nerds , people have no clue what  details should   be included on said tank , and what should not . Is there a right or wrong way to build? No ,  we all build to our own skill level and enjoyment  wether the kit is to be used as  a gaming piece or in  a  diorama .  * Did Rubicon include L48 guns in the Stug III kit ? Might be a source of longer gun barrels
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 13, 2017, 10:47:02 AM
I accept your point with the side skirts ripley. However I don't think there is a technical limitation with the barrel length. Depending on the wargames rules being used it might be valuable to model armour variations (eg vorpanzer) or different barrel lengths representing different penetration capabilities. I think it adds interest to the hobby.

I agree not many observers will know the difference but it's the model builder/owner that's learning and hopefully gaining something when they part with their money. My two cents worth anyway. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 13, 2017, 10:59:07 PM
I can't find any photos of Ausf Fs with this additional armour.  The Ausf F was uparmoured anyway - maybe that's why.

This was particularly mentioned (with technical drawings) in the "Panzer IV & Its Variants" book from Spielberger German Armor & Military Vehicle Series.

The uparmouring of the Ausf F is mentioned but I can't see any mention of an Ausf F Vorpanzer [edit - I think we're talking about different Spielberger books].

The uparmouring of the Ausf F put more weight on the suspension, so the tracks were widened.  Personally, I don't think that's going to be noticeable on a 1/56 scale kit - especially when the tracks are already somewhat simplified.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 14, 2017, 06:30:28 AM
Pinky, the Tank Encyclopedia has an artists side view of what purports to be a Pz IV F1 Vorpanzer. I don't know what evidence was used to create it.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_IV.php
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 14, 2017, 09:59:26 AM
Yes, I saw that.  I don't think they're a very reliable source - especially their colour schemes.

I found a very poor photo of an Ausf F1 with Vorpanzer, and a little bit of information from what seems to be a Spielberger book.  I think this may be Rubicon's source.  My point is that the Ausf F already had increased armour protection, and by adding the Vorpanzer they would have increased the weight further.  Perhaps they just experimented with it? 

I think these vehicles are in France in 1942.  On close inspection, only the first one is an Ausf F1.

(https://s11.postimg.org/44ef74izz/IMG_0073.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/44ef74izz/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: tyroflyer on March 14, 2017, 10:56:21 AM
It's a shame we don't appear to know when this extra armour first appeared. It would give a clue when it arrived on the production line and therefore on which variant. That is assuming it wasn't only a retrofit.

I wonder if it was considered worthwhile for tanks intended for employment in urban areas where the extra weight (poorly distributed) was less important than when travelling cross country. Pure speculation on my part. I note when the L43 weapon appeared the 'vorpanzer' extra pieces seem to have disappeared. The extra weight of the new weapon probably put an end to the idea.

My guess is it first appeared on Ausf E, Lasted until Ausf F1 and possibly retrofitted to Ausf D. However the paucity of photographic evidence suggests it was never common.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 14, 2017, 08:33:23 PM
The Vorpanzer term also includes just the extra bolted on hull armor   as seen on D& E versions . From what I can find out from searching Missing Lynx and various kit reviews , mostly D & E got the turret armor ( numbers unknown, - the thought  on ML is that they all were sent to one unit in Russia ) , there is a picture of  one C and those 2 F1 s Pinky posted ( in Russia ) , with the turret armor . If other C s and F1 s got it , no other pictures have been found . Never say never with German stuff , but it seems that  the up armored hull , turret and longer gun came out and the vorpanzer add ons were no longer needed .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: Pinky on March 15, 2017, 12:21:48 AM
"Vorpanzer" means "fore-armour" - spaced armour. 

One caption I found for the photo above says the Vorpanzer on the Ausf F1 glacis is as fitted to the Panzer III Ausf L.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf F1 3D Drawings 170301
Post by: ripley on March 15, 2017, 02:26:00 AM
The bolted on hull armor was spaced , like on the IV D as well as the Panzer III . It was the hull side and nose armor that was bolted with no spacing .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 15, 2017, 10:02:28 PM
Here is our Wire Mesh Side Skirt test for the Ausf J...
Still have not decided on how to produce it, awaiting
additional tests to decide!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20IV%2015Mar17-1_zpsmsn0pmni.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on March 15, 2017, 10:33:29 PM
That would be some plastic moulding ^__^

Photo etch nickel silver or stainless steel?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 15, 2017, 10:58:46 PM
That would be some plastic moulding ^__^
Photo etch nickel silver or stainless steel?

We have not decide yet.  This drawing is for plastic moulding - which we know our mould maker will probably kill us!
Looking into several solutions...  too early to decide.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Pinky on March 15, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
I certainly admire you for trying to make this work.  I personally don't think it's worth it, but kudos if you can manage this in plastic.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 15, 2017, 11:17:53 PM
I certainly admire you for trying to make this work.  I personally don't thin it's worth it, but kudos if you can manage this in plastic.

We are still building up on our digital library.  Towards the end of phase 1 (technical drawings), we will need to gauge what we have done so far and then decide on what to do with the various drawings.  Still too early to say what will go into production.  We know there are some technical limitations, but you don't know the possibilities if you don't try!

;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 15, 2017, 11:18:34 PM
In a good mood today, how about some 3D prototyping?

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170315-1_zpsbvtaktwl.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Ballardian on March 16, 2017, 12:54:22 AM
Nice work on the turret side hatches, a useful addition to the modelling options.
 As to the mesh skirts for the J, as primarily a gamer nowadays, I realise that there's often going to be a degree of compromise necessary to make a model for gaming & this is a prime case in point. I'd imagine any attempt at mesh schurzen would have to be overscale (& I'm absolutely ok with that) & pretty difficult to render effectively in plastic. My own attempts in the past have used the fine steel mesh found in cooking splatter-guards & that in fine plastic (PVC?) sieves (I believe others on the forum have already suggested it) with plasticard frames. They are, of course, compromises - any smaller & it gets difficult to not block the mesh with paint, defeating the object - but I'm glad you're continuing to search for a viable way of producing it, good luck!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on March 16, 2017, 01:34:45 AM
I know that Pinky has expressed reservations on photo etch, but that might be a solution for the mesh, and perhaps for a nearer scale sheet skirt.

The cunning part would be how to integrate the photo etch and the plastic mouldings.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 16, 2017, 01:58:43 AM
I know that Pinky has expressed reservations on photo etch, but that might be a solution for the mesh, and perhaps for a nearer scale sheet skirt.
The cunning part would be how to integrate the photo etch and the plastic mouldings.

There are now multi-layer photo-etching techniques that are not available before.  Production cost is relatively high but results are quite acceptable.  We have devised a simple way to assembly the side skirts, but need to test it out later before putting it to action.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: ripley on March 16, 2017, 03:15:58 AM
Nice work on the turret doors , saves me the trouble   ::) . And  I think you are heading in the right direction in designing the Thoma Skirts , at this scale they are always going to be over scale to look right . . IRC most mesh skirts had a tube / pipe for the top full length support , not a bar like the plate skirts ( see pictures I posted page 8 this thread ) Also your turret side door is shown up side down , the vision slit is located at the bottom , and the pistol port door hinge at the top . I think you used the right side doors not the left for your example . I built a 1/35 scale kit like that once , many years ago  :-
(https://s16.postimg.org/5g7woux3l/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101_I_312_0998_27_Monte_Cassino.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5g7woux3l/)
Also the interior vision block is too flat , they stick out quite a bit
(https://s29.postimg.org/j61w9zb8z/PW16_07_IMG_0002.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/j61w9zb8z/)
And it looks like the turret side doors lost their vision ports on the late J s - note no port
(https://s29.postimg.org/b85x06fhv/Panzer_IV_towing_eyes_zpsprjmbr45.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/b85x06fhv/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 16, 2017, 08:03:45 AM
Nice work on the turret doors , saves me the trouble   ::) . And  I think you are heading in the right direction in designing the Thoma Skirts , at this scale they are always going to be over scale to look right . . IRC most mesh skirts had a tube / pipe for the top full length support , not a bar like the plate skirts ( see pictures I posted page 8 this thread ) Also your turret side door is shown up side down , the vision slit is located at the bottom , and the pistol port door hinge at the top . I think you used the right side doors not the left for your example . I built a 1/35 scale kit like that once , many years ago  :-

We know.  The bar is for plate skirt because of the weight.  We have not done the pipe version yet... also it sat much higher as the wire-mesh was "hanging" on the pipe.  We also found that out on the side door "after" we took the picture... it was a snapshot, so did not bother to take it again.  Just wanted to show you guys what we are in progress!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: ripley on March 16, 2017, 08:30:54 AM
No worries .  I'm starting to think a J kit is going to be a 3 sprue  kit all by itself with  so many variations in parts .  And we want to model them all !  ::) .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: Pinky on March 16, 2017, 09:41:25 AM
Apparently the Panzer IV crews were none too happy with the modifications made to the Ausf J in order to simplify production.  The lack of powered turret traverse, loss of vision ports and mesh Schurzen (which wasn't effective against bazookas) all degraded the tank's effectiveness.  There were also issues with the quality of German armour plate by late 1944, which is why you see knocked out Panzers with large chunks missing from their armour.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J Wire-Mesh Test 170315
Post by: ripley on March 16, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
I can see removing the vision ports , you couldn't see any thing because of the turret and hull skirting . Plus it probably  saved time in manufacture and  some money as well . Funny they didn't add a Stug type all round vision cupola or some roof mounted periscopes like on the Jagdpanther .  Made them an easy target for enemy troops shooting from cover .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 18, 2017, 12:10:05 AM
This was supposed to be posted earlier, but Photobucket had problem with their
upload service for the past two days...

This is the "revised" one-piece track for the Panzer IV.  Each production variant
will have their own drive sprocket and rear idler wheel...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170315-2_zps09k1ztvk.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: Swamprat33 on March 18, 2017, 09:04:05 AM
Hiya, that looks really good.

Will you be doing the 3 idler wheel track for use with the ausf J?

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: ripley on March 18, 2017, 01:03:27 PM
Looks great . Don't forget the A - D had different hub caps than the E - J .
(https://s7.postimg.org/3zpesunkn/wheels21.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3zpesunkn/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 18, 2017, 01:10:25 PM
Looks great . Don't forget the A - D had different hub caps than the E - J .

We had discussed this at the studio, will probably ignore the differences as "D" is the only one with the earlier hub cap.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: tyroflyer on March 18, 2017, 01:32:28 PM
I had only just made this discovery myself.

Unfortunately from my point of view I've also discovered Ausf A thru C had quite different drive wheel sprockets than later ones. There is secondary evidence to the contrary with, for example, box art depicting Ausf D with C sprockets but I suspect this is wrong.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: tyroflyer on March 18, 2017, 02:49:36 PM
Now I'm not so sure. I am seeing elaborate models Of Ausf D with drive wheel sprockets that look like C's and pictures purporting to be D's that also look like they have C's sprockets rather than the later version. Does someone know the truth of this.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 18, 2017, 02:55:49 PM
@tyroflyer - Ausf A to C (and in some cases, Ausf D) are evolving prototypes of the Panzer IV.  Many parts were gradually replaced or upgraded.  You simply cannot look at some photos to decide what is "correct" for which variant.  We read a lot from reference books and historical blueprints, and pick the "most common" for our final 3D drawings.

-AND- don't use museum exhibits for reference; most of them are incorrect.  We use them only for measurement and scale!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: Pinky on March 18, 2017, 04:16:53 PM
Looks great . Don't forget the A - D had different hub caps than the E - J .

We had discussed this at the studio, will probably ignore the differences as "D" is the only one with the earlier hub cap.

I can live with this.  I think it's more important to have the right sprocket and idler designs for the different versions. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: tyroflyer on March 18, 2017, 05:10:13 PM
Rubicon. No museum exhibits had been referred to. I take your point it's just an example where the driving wheel sprocket can't be used as an identifying feature of an Ausf D. Perhaps the evolution with the road wheels was more clear cut on the transition from D to E. It appears likely both the earlier sprocket fitted to Ausf A to C and the later version were used on the production line for D's.

I don't know why Panzer IV's earlier than Ausf E are described as prototypes. Evolving yes, but prototypes. 134 C's, 229 D's and 223 E's produced. Are the 175 F2's and 25 F2 conversions prototypes for the following 1687 G's? I think these production numbers put them well beyond prototype status and down plays the importance of the earlier variants at the time of the Panzer IV's greatest success.

I have a lot of confidence in you in getting a top notch product to market. The effort you are putting in to the Panzer IV and the Sherman is outstanding.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: ripley on March 18, 2017, 10:49:00 PM
Most German tanks are a mix of various parts from the different marks , just look a the variations on the Pzr IV J  . There are pictures of Pzr IV  D s with both early and late hub caps , some times a mix of both on  the vehicle .   The more you think you've got it all figured out , the more you realize how much you don't know .  ::) 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Tracks & Roadwheels 170318
Post by: tyroflyer on March 19, 2017, 10:45:01 AM
Well said ripley. I think I've gone from knowing very little on this subject to almost nothing. Interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Hull Top 170322
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 22, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
Again, a prototype of the Panzer IV hull top.  Still a work-in-progress
as we are continuing changing the design to accommodate additional
features added to the digital library.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170315-3_zpsew4xzxcl.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Hull Top 170322
Post by: Pinky on March 22, 2017, 04:41:35 PM
Looks great!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Hull Top 170322
Post by: tyroflyer on March 22, 2017, 08:18:56 PM
Definitely on the right track.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Hull Top 170322
Post by: ripley on March 22, 2017, 08:20:44 PM
Some of the tools and the jack look too shallow in detail ( CAD limitations ?) , but looking good non the less . Lots of potential for other Pzr IV based kits , Stug IV and Brumbar
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 22, 2017, 11:02:24 PM
3D prototypes of our version of Panzer IV Ausf D / Ausf E / Ausf F1:

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-01_zpsw8chxe85.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-02_zpslox1bpkv.jpg)

Panzer IV Ausf D
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-03_zps5c1kmwqq.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-04_zps0mtdzlgz.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-05_zpser42pz1x.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-06_zpsrwk4tjum.jpg)

Panzer IV Ausf E
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-07_zpsgvkpxvvm.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-08_zpsg1zdnyok.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-09_zpsxbgsojkp.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-10_zps6h6qnxyk.jpg)

Panzer IV Ausf D & Ausf E Side-by-Side
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-11_zpsk8yte6hl.jpg)

Panzer IV Ausf F1
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-12_zpsdyneed6x.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-13_zps3eo9pd96.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-14_zpsyv30u0s6.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-15_zpseewnhgz0.jpg)

Panzer IV Ausf D/E/F1 Group
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Prototype%20170322-16_zpskposlnxk.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ripley on March 23, 2017, 12:06:05 AM
WOW ! looking fantastic . Love the D & E . The F driver's visor  looks a little weird though , everything else is good though
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on March 23, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
They look very good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Pinky on March 23, 2017, 12:25:56 AM
Very exciting to see these in 3-D form.  You seem to have gotten some additional detail onto the outer surface of the tracks - they look good.  The casting on the tools etc looks fine to me.

Only 2 comments:

- would it be possible to have the upper hull in 2  separate pieces so the engine deck with raised louvres can also be used with the Ausf E?

- the Ausf E doesn't seem to have the bolted-on armour on the upper hull sides.

I hope you can find space on the sprues for stowage.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Pinky on March 23, 2017, 12:27:57 AM
WOW ! looking fantastic . Love the D & E . The F driver's visor  looks a little weird though , everything else is good though

It hasn't been attached properly.  It's the same design as the visor in their previous (discontinued) Panzer IV.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: tyroflyer on March 23, 2017, 06:21:12 AM
I am very impressed with these. I note Rubicon has chosen to use the earlier drive sprocket on the Ausf D which would reduce the number of changes required to modify it to the earlier versions. You are setting a very high standard Rubicon.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: tyroflyer on March 23, 2017, 09:53:53 AM
Pinky's suggestion of doing the upper hull in 2 pieces to enable flexibility is worthy of consideration subject to practical limitations.

By the way I think the last individual photo of the D has been accidentally labelled as an E.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: tyroflyer on March 23, 2017, 08:23:11 PM
Can I suggest having another look at the hinges on the hatches on the left and right of the glacis for the Ausf D. The pictures I'm seeing of the original vehicles at the time (and of other models) suggest a couple of distinctly separate hinges rather than what I am seeing on the images here. 
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ripley on March 23, 2017, 08:46:20 PM
tyroflyer is right , 2 part hinges .
(https://s9.postimg.org/5eypizjqz/Pz_IV_Damp_E_01s_zpsmsdesprt.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5eypizjqz/)
 Pzr IV D  drawing by H.L. Doyle ( the complete drawing compares the D to the E hence the actual picture title , I just cropped the D )
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Rubicon Models on March 23, 2017, 09:21:31 PM
It was an overlook when we swapped files (and parts) during 3D printing...
Had everything marked and checked... lol!!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/PzIV-DampE-01s_zpsko110bha.jpg)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Ballardian on March 24, 2017, 11:49:48 PM
These look great, I look forward to the finished articles.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: aphillathehun on April 04, 2017, 10:01:48 PM

Hi,

just catching up on this.  I went looking for the Panzer IV kit and found it has been retired.  I'm glad to see these updates coming along.

I scanned through this thread and didn't see either of these asked, but I may have missed it.

Do you have a target release date for the early Panzer IVs?

Do you plan to do a version of the later Panzer IVs with zimmerit?

thanks,
-a
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: Rubicon Models on April 04, 2017, 11:22:18 PM
Do you have a target release date for the early Panzer IVs?

We have to finish all technical drawings for the Panzer IV before they are pass to mould making.  There are at least two plastic kits planned, but we will not know until all drawings are done.


Do you plan to do a version of the later Panzer IVs with zimmerit?

No, there will be no plastic Panzer IV with zimmerit.  We might have an upgrade kit later.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on May 29, 2017, 03:28:05 PM
I know someone has mentioned this elsewhere, but adding a cupola to a stowage/add on kit would be useful (possibly a whole new T34 turret top plates to match) for T34s in German service.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ripley on May 29, 2017, 08:07:34 PM
Great minds think alike smurf , but I can't wait so I cast my own
(https://s13.postimg.org/p6vjnutqr/IMG_20170516_184346031.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/p6vjnutqr/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on May 29, 2017, 09:03:30 PM
That also reminds me about turret bins (Osprey have an illustration of a Panzer III or IV with a second turret bin on the rear deck.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Panzer IV Ausf D / E / F1 - 170323
Post by: ripley on May 30, 2017, 02:07:38 AM
That's a WIP , I have the bin left over from my Whirbelwind / Pzr IV turm conversions , so I thought to use it on the Beute 34 . Looking at pictures , the Germans just seemed to weld it on any old way , some are crooked , so glueing it should work out ok
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: Rubicon Models on June 23, 2017, 05:21:53 PM
Not update anything since late March... Some eye candy for you!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/PE-Pz4J%20170423-1_zpsvc4t7tj7.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on June 23, 2017, 05:42:20 PM
Interesting, how do you intend to attach them to the plastic?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: Rubicon Models on June 23, 2017, 06:39:56 PM
Interesting, how do you intend to attach them to the plastic?

After evaluation and several test fittings, we tend to decide on a standalone piece being a better solution.  We will try to use a thicker metal piece - either brass or stainless steel.

If fitted on a plastic frame, fitting and assembly would be quite complicated for an average gamer; and a waste of sprue space too!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: ripley on June 23, 2017, 07:53:12 PM
Looks good , and you included the mesh that goes flat  over the fenders , well done . Most companies forget about those  :)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on June 23, 2017, 09:18:46 PM
Interesting, how do you intend to attach them to the plastic?

After evaluation and several test fittings, we tend to decide on a standalone piece being a better solution.  We will try to use a thicker metal piece - either brass or stainless steel.

If fitted on a plastic frame, fitting and assembly would be quite complicated for an average gamer; and a waste of sprue space too!
Nickel Silver is popular for etched chassis construction for model railway modellers.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: Ballardian on June 23, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
They look very nice :)
 
Quote
Interesting, how do you intend to attach them to the plastic?
- I suppose that might depend to a degree as to what they're eventually made from - PE on 1/72 & 1/35 models will sometimes be fine using plastic cement - the plastic melts enough to hold the PE in place, but for gaming models it's likely that superglue is going to be necessary & it's still likely to be more fragile than the rest of the kit.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: ripley on June 24, 2017, 02:52:00 AM
Don't think I would use a kit with these type skirts in a game situation , some guys have real heavy fingers  ::) OOPS !
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: Ballardian on June 24, 2017, 08:06:51 PM
 While acknowledging that it's likely that the attachment points for schurzen in different materials is going to be a little fragile, I'm very happy to see Rubicon having a go at them.
  I think that a strip of plastic card attached to the back of the skirts, matching up with the attachment points on the model could provide a better weld with the kit, holding them on more robustly.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: Chimaera on July 13, 2017, 02:48:59 AM
Got to call it how I see it and not a fan of mixed material, much prefer the skirts were in plastic.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on July 13, 2017, 02:47:27 PM
Don't think I would use a kit with these type skirts in a game situation , some guys have real heavy fingers  ::) OOPS !
Possibly not for long  ^___^.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Rubicon Models on October 27, 2017, 02:12:11 PM
After 4 months without a proper update on this Panzer IV project, we are now getting somewhere... after our Q3/17 rush!

This is a Photo-Etched plate that we just got back from the factory this morning!
Probably the "first" PE part ever produced for 1/56 scale in the industry!

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/PE-PzIV-J%20171027-1_zpsbpbrpl0c.jpg)[/URL]

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on October 27, 2017, 05:39:30 PM
Looks good.

Certainly for WW2.

Old Crow used photo etched parts for the turret basket and splinter shields for their 25/28mm Hammers Slammers Panzer and Blower models (bodies in resin, other bits in white metal).

Ground Zero Games had etched brass parts on the 25mm Knight Sabres figures (white metal).
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Pinky on October 27, 2017, 05:55:47 PM
Well, I admire the quality of this, but shudder at the introduction of photo-etched metal parts.  Photo-etched stuff has always bugged me - they're meant to be plastic kits, after all.  And this kind of component does not look very suitable for wargaming.  At some point, providing this kind of level of 'realism' conflicts with the policy of making kits which are robust and relatively easy to assemble.  You can no longer have one-piece tracks because the simplified track detail is too obvious next to finely detailed photo-etched parts.   
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Lovstrom on October 27, 2017, 05:58:48 PM
Did you make slits for the bends on those etches?
Otherwise they will be really difficult to bend in the right place.

Sven who also builds model railways in etched brass.

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on October 27, 2017, 06:26:17 PM
Did you make slits for the bends on those etches?
Otherwise they will be really difficult to bend in the right place.

Sven who also builds model railways in etched brass.

if you look at the solid bars on the turret armour, you can see half etched lines which I guess are the bend points.

Traditionally on model railway etches, the etched  bend is on the inside (I will check that).

Have you thought about adding a tool or turret bustle box or mounting brackets to the etch, there is quite a bit of empty space?
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Rubicon Models on October 27, 2017, 09:29:14 PM
Well, I admire the quality of this, but shudder at the introduction of photo-etched metal parts.  Photo-etched stuff has always bugged me - they're meant to be plastic kits, after all.  And this kind of component does not look very suitable for wargaming.  At some point, providing this kind of level of 'realism' conflicts with the policy of making kits which are robust and relatively easy to assemble.  You can no longer have one-piece tracks because the simplified track detail is too obvious next to finely detailed photo-etched parts.

We still prefer plastic, pewter, or resin over photo-etched parts.  They are very expensive to produce and must be in volume to make them viable to be included in a product.  The only reason we added this is because we are not able to make this part strong and thin enough in any other material.  The assembly is extremely easy as we had gone an extra step to make sure it is a one-step assembly without the super-glue mess.  The one-piece track now has fine details on the front of the tracks which we think is good enough to go with the photo-etched parts.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Rubicon Models on October 27, 2017, 09:38:32 PM
If you look at the solid bars on the turret armour, you can see half etched lines which I guess are the bend points.

Part no 2 & 3 are not schurzen for the turret, but top mesh that appeared on both the left and right-hand side of the hull as shown below:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/l_DRA6575_MFU1_zps3skfmeaa.jpg)


Have you thought about adding a tool or turret bustle box or mounting brackets to the etch, there is quite a bit of empty space?

That will depend on what the designers wanted. Will pass the comment to them.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: ripley on October 27, 2017, 09:55:00 PM
While the Thoma side skirts will be welcome , I for one do not want to try and fold photo etch to make a square  box never mind multi bends to make turret stowage box . I admit it , photo etch scares me  :-[
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: tyroflyer on October 28, 2017, 10:42:34 AM
It would have been easy for Rubicon to put these in the too hard basket. I'm pleased they haven't. However Pinky's point about high detail in one area and not another is valid. Perhaps when Panzer IV kits get another upgrade in the years to come the tracks will get looked at again.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Pinky on October 28, 2017, 11:08:36 PM
I must admit the tracks on that prototype look pretty good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Rubicon Models on October 29, 2017, 12:56:36 AM
I must admit the tracks on that prototype look pretty good.

The image right above is from a 1/35 unknown manufacturer, probably Dragon, with after-market PE add-on...  not ours!  ;D
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy #2 - 171027
Post by: Pinky on October 29, 2017, 09:53:37 AM
Haha!  I waslooking at the tracks wondering how you'd done that in one piece.  I'd also had 3 glasses of wine.  Don't I feel stupid... :o
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Thoma Mesh Side Skirts 171113
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 13, 2017, 05:24:40 PM
After several trials and error for different thickness and production method for the photo-etched (PE) plates, we finally get it right!

This is going to be the most straight-forward assembly for the use of PE parts with a plastic model kit!

The support frame is a two-piece plastic that you can mount on to the side of the Panzer IV "with" or "without" the PE mesh armour.

Mounting the PE is basically snipping the parts off from the PE plate with a sharp cutter and then "snap" it onto the support frame.  Finishing it off by adding a few drops of superglue to a few contact points. The final product should be fairly solid even being handled on the gaming table.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-J%20Mesh%20171113-1_zpscqj5ecqb.jpg)

Enjoy!
 ;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Thoma Mesh Side Skirts 171113
Post by: ripley on November 13, 2017, 09:03:15 PM
Looks really good  :D
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Thoma Mesh Side Skirts 171113
Post by: Ballardian on November 14, 2017, 01:24:46 AM

 Fantastic, even better than I expected, I look forward to getting my hands on some.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Thoma Mesh Side Skirts 171113
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on November 15, 2017, 06:55:42 AM
Looks good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 21, 2017, 05:11:08 PM
This is the final 3D drawing for the Panzer IV Ausf J. This signified the completion of our Panzer IV Digital Library project. Will start moving into the mould making phase.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-J%20Final%20171119-01_zpsvao1pmzu.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-J%20Final%20171119-02_zpscxwjnmvp.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV-J%20Final%20171119-03_zpsqea0ek2j.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 21, 2017, 08:51:49 PM
I'm not keen on the etched metal sideskirts, but I think I'm in a minority there.

There are some mistakes on the turret:

- the turret roof should have a splash-guard around the cupola, and the vain sight in front of the cupola should omitted.

- the turret roof is also missing the Pilzen - the 3 sockets for mounting a frame to remove the engine. 

- the rectangular piece on top of the turret ventilator is presumably meant to be a poison gas detection panel.  If this was fitted there would also be a similar fitting on top of the main gun recuperator housing.  They were raised, not flat.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 21, 2017, 08:57:04 PM
And there should be no vision or pistol ports on the turret doors ,  sides and rear , I assume the picture is just a CAD reuse and you knew that  ;D
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 21, 2017, 09:38:04 PM
Well spotted - I didn't see the vision ports were still there.

Rubicon said these were "final".  Hopefully it's not too late to fix these errors.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 21, 2017, 10:15:37 PM
 I still think Its just reusing the CAD . That's what they did when they showed of one of the redesigned Sherman kits . The actual plastic was right  .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 21, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
There might be some compromise because the turret will be used for multiple variants (from Ausf G to J) complicated by sprue space.  But we will look into further updates as long as the changes are minor.

;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 21, 2017, 10:38:30 PM
IRC , it was the removal of the aux motor for the turret ( no small exhaust ) , and the longer L48 gun that make it a J model . The removal of vision / pistol ports , the dual exhaust , one piece commanders hatch , etc were all design changes to save assembly time and money witch started before the J came out  . You see some  of  these changes on  Gs & Hs . As well some Js still had ports , split commanders hatch , even old large exhaust (but no small ) , really a mishmash of parts which goes along with the German doctrine of using up old parts on newer models of vehicles .  Maybe Rubicon could give us 2 set of turret doors ,one with , one without ports . The ports on the turret side and rear could be easily removed by the modeller if so inclined
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 22, 2017, 12:00:21 AM
I think these details are pretty important.  No point giving so much attention to things like sideskirts then skimping on the accuracy of the turret.  Features like Pilsen can be moulded on, so they can be sliced off for earlier version.  I guess the cupola splash guard would be a separate piece.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 22, 2017, 12:28:22 AM
@Pinky, mind you if you can post some references here. We can discuss further with our designers over the final production meeting on the Panzer IV tomorrow!  ;)

From what I could recall, these were discussed at earlier meetings; and as @ripley stated, many of these features actually was present or missing on earlier variants as well.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 22, 2017, 09:18:53 AM
None of the ( few ) books I have that include info on the IV J actually show a picture of a 100 % J version .  It should  have the cast  idler wheel , 3 not 4 return rollers ,some had the all steel road wheels ( like Brumbar ) vertical dual exhausts , the extended hull side with the hole  for the towing shackles ,  the close defence  weapon ( smoke launcher ) on the roof as well as the already mentioned deleted vision ports etc . and of course the steel mesh  Schurzen . Seems to me its  a full kit all on its own , IMO  it  might not be a profitable model to produce as way too many things will be needed to back date a pure 100 %  J to other versions and its the multi version kits that seem to be a favorite with the gamers  as well as the model guys , at least in my area . I know I can get by without a full J version , I already have 7 panzer IV  G/H s   :-[   You can find pictures of preserved IV Js in the   Saumur Museum, as well as the Armour Museum in Israel ( captured from Syrians ) but again both have some but not all features  ::)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: tyroflyer on November 22, 2017, 02:09:47 PM
I confess to some amusement. I think Pz IV Ausf J is a desirable weapon on the wargames table. However you can fight any period of the war without it. It's a pity the same can't be said for Panzer IV Ausf C, a vital and missing variant early in the war Rubicon don't appear interested in. I'll crawl back in my box now!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 22, 2017, 11:32:18 PM
@Pinky, mind you if you can post some references here. We can discuss further with our designers over the final production meeting on the Panzer IV tomorrow!  ;)

From what I could recall, these were discussed at earlier meetings; and as @ripley stated, many of these features actually was present or missing on earlier variants as well.

I think you have some of the references, such as Spielberger's "Panzer IV and its Variants".  On pages 69 and 70 are photos of Ausf Js which clearly show the Pilzen and cupola splash guard, as well as the lack of vision ports.

Ripley' point was that the vision ports were eliminated before the Ausf J started production, so most if not all Ausf Js would not have them.  Spielberger says (page 66) that these changes were made pre-Ausf J, and there are photos of Ausf Hs without the vision ports (and with the splash guard).  Remember also that the mesh sideskirts were a late feature, so vehicles fitted with these would normally have the other late features (including the reduced number of return rollers, although that's not a big deal).

The rectangular panel on the ventilator cover just seems unnecessary.  I can't find any photos of actual tanks with this feature, and it will be a pain to have to carve it off.  Apparently this cover was larger on the Ausf J, which is why there is a semi-circular section cut out of it to make room for the Nahverteidigungswaffe.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 23, 2017, 01:53:06 PM
- the turret roof should have a splash-guard around the cupola, and the vain sight in front of the cupola should omitted.
- the turret roof is also missing the Pilzen - the 3 sockets for mounting a frame to remove the engine. 

These two omissions had been fixed in the 3D drawing.  The splash guard is particularly tricky because it distorted the shape of the copula design of the model.  Still need some fiddling to get it looks right at this scale.


- the rectangular piece on top of the turret ventilator is presumably meant to be a poison gas detection panel.  If this was fitted there would also be a similar fitting on top of the main gun recuperator housing.  They were raised, not flat.

This we are not sure... Have checked all our reference drawings, could not identify the location!


We used several references to the Ausf J, main ones as follow:

1) Panzer Tracts No 4 - Panzerkampfwagen IV
2) Squadron / Signal Publication - PzKpfw IV in action
3) Spielberger - Panzer IV & Its Variants

Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 23, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
Okay, so how will you handle the removal of the vision ports?  Will these be separate/optional parts?

This we are not sure... Have checked all our reference drawings, could not identify the location!

The photos of actual vehicles available are very murky.  Here is a WiP model by Tom Cockle which shows the gas detection panels (white plastic card) on the ventilator cover and recuperator housing.  Again, I'd suggest just eliminating this.
 
(https://s18.postimg.org/w1pobd6lx/Ausf_J.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/w1pobd6lx/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 23, 2017, 03:34:18 PM
These are some of the blueprints we used for the Ausf J... they are from Panzer Tracts No 4.

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20Tracts%204%20PzIV-1_zpsyjiuro6g.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20Tracts%204%20PzIV-3_zps5nauo9vj.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Panzer%20Tracts%204%20PzIV-2_zps04l5wxfp.jpg)

Our 3D drawings should be very close to these!
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 23, 2017, 04:17:20 PM
Your design is indeed very close - but your 3-D designers obviously missed the Pilzen and splash guard, which are clearly shown in the blueprint.  They've also included all of the vision ports, even though these are clearly omitted in the blueprints.

As with all blueprints, these are ultimately just someone's best depiction of the subject based on what they had.  I've explained the feature on the ventilator cover (possibly the artist who made the blueprint didn't know what it was - I didn't either until I spent some time checking).  Very few photos of Ausf Js show anything there, so why include it?  Anyway, it's up to you.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 23, 2017, 09:06:29 PM
Well that's strange , both Tom's model and the blue print show the commander's hatch would open to the right , while most pictures I've seen show it opening to the left side . The more you think you know.. ...no wonder it's difficult to get a handle on the J model
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 23, 2017, 10:24:40 PM
The cupola rotated, at least on late production versions.  That may explain the different hatch position.[edit: incorrect - see below]
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 23, 2017, 10:32:46 PM
 I thought the Germans had problems making ball bearings , even replacing them with wooden balls bearings . Many of the Stugs which are supposed to have the commader's hatch rotate ( for the  scissors periscope ) were bolted in one position , forward .  And just why would the IV need the hatch cover to  rotate , no scissors periscope to give the commander a 360 " view . Nothing like adding more parts and complicated  assembly as your country goes down in flames  , those crazy Germans  ::)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: Pinky on November 24, 2017, 12:13:09 AM
Sorry, I read a bad translation.  The late version hatch lid pivoted (like the Panther cupola hatch), rather than being hinged.  Hence the different attachment.

According to Doyle and Jentz's Osprey book on the Ausf G, H and J:

- the vision ports were eliminated from May 1944 onwards, but not from all vehicles;
- the Flammentoter (the 2 exhaust mufflers) replaced the single cylindrical muffler in August 1944;
- the mesh sideskirts were introduced from September 1944, when Zimmerit was discontinued;
- the hull sides were extended in October 1944, so that the towing points were integral;
- the return rollers were reduced to 3 on each side in December 1944.

So Rubicon's Ausf J is (or should be) a very late model.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: tyroflyer on November 24, 2017, 07:47:40 AM
Very interesting. I suspect Rubicon are planning on 4 return rollers. In which case we are looking at a late 1944 tank rather than 1945. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Hopefully when the final product is produced and incorporates advice from Pinky, among others, it will get great reviews.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
Post by: ripley on November 24, 2017, 08:56:05 AM
 Some other Pzr IV based vehicles had the 3 return rollers  ( Jagdpanzer IV /70 V and  I think late Stug IV & Brumbar ) , maybe Rubicon could add an extra hull tub to their kit , like they add the extra upper hull to the Sherman . To get a late /late version  ( of everything ) would be ok in my book . Again weather or not its going to be profitable to produce said kits is another story , and if not I understand completely , I'll just have to kit bash my own ... like I have time to k bash everything I want :D
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 24, 2017, 11:56:59 AM
Getting away from the Ausf J debates for a while until our design staff had the references sorted out!
Stowage that we had planned for the Panzer IV...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Stowage%20171123-01_zpscihumy4r.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Stowage%20171123-02_zpsupplrbyq.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Stowage%20171123-03_zps6diac8wj.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Pz%20IV%20Stowage%20171123-04_zpsb87spwcn.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: ripley on November 24, 2017, 01:06:41 PM
Well that's a good start . Not a good idea to have the camo nets draped over the turret doors , crews didn't put anything over their escape hatches . Try bailing out of a tank on fire and getting all tangled in net , not good . Some tanks with the turret skirting added wire mesh to the space behind the turret doors , making it like the baskets seen on 1970s Brit and US tanks . And while the canteen and mess kit would work  I don't think I've ever seen tank troops with the so called bread bags hanging on their tanks  , that's more an Infantry piece of equipment . And IRC internal stowage diagrams show specific bins/ compartments  that  food and water was stored in . 
(https://s2.postimg.org/5rdqum4ut/panzer4j_tamiya_148_hoeltge_1_LI.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5rdqum4ut/)
I know its a model but you get the idea  :)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on November 24, 2017, 04:30:27 PM
A good idea.

Ripley makes some good points.

Water bottles seemed popular in groups.

I will dig out the photograph reference in the Osprey book
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: Pinky on November 24, 2017, 11:02:41 PM
Are these resin?  Or just prototypes?

I agree with Ripley's comments.  The turret stowage looks weird - what are these items attached to?  The folds on the blanket rolls don't look natural either.  I think I've seen the bread bags on Afrika Korps Panzers though.

It looks as though some of these items were based on this:

(https://s8.postimg.org/mexaa50bl/IMG_0120.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mexaa50bl/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: ripley on November 29, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
Lets think about stuff stowed on tanks - you don't want to stop the turret from turning or the gun from elevating / depressing  so no stuff blocking it or the bow mg . Now the German heading into Russia during the early part of the war had all sorts of stuff covering the engine deck inhibiting the turret  ( fuel cans , ammo , etc ) , but that was because they had no opposition and were outrunning their supply train ,  the Allies did the same pushing through Germany in 45 .  If you are in contact , all that extra stuff gets dumped !  You don't cover the vision ports , you got to see whats going on around you , again , heading into Russian , lots of wooden boxes , crates on the fenders blocking the vision slits , but these are ( mostly )  gone when in combat . You also don't block your escape hatches , the crew has to get out in an emergency . A new tank you can get  but a well trained crew to use that tank  is priceless . And last , you don't cover the air intake / out lets on your engine deck , tanks run hot , engines have to cool , IRC the panzer IV sucked air in through the engine deck and expelled it through the side vents over the fenders  , don't block them with a lot of kit . That being said , tankers carried a lot of extra gear , best to check wartime pictures for placement , and not pictures of knocked out vehicles as kit has been disturbed by the explosion , by the crew exiting in a hurry or by folks looking for souveniers or plunder . Rubicon has some nice pieces of kit planned  ( the tarps I don't like , sorry ), I would just use them in more logical ( to me ) places .
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: tyroflyer on November 29, 2017, 02:32:19 PM
I imagine the tanks could be heavily camouflaged without concern for the hatches/intakes being covered when the main concern was attack from the air and the vehicle's crew not in it. However this doesn't seem the likely situation on the gaming table.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
Post by: ripley on November 29, 2017, 09:05:20 PM
Heavy camouflage ,like a Tiger in the haystack ?  In ambush , tanks might be totally covered , but once they fired a couple of rounds they usually moved loosing most of the camo.  If they're parked , they might be totally covered in branches and netting  to hide from aircraft , but again most of those are gone when they are in motion . Just look at  pictures of German tanks in Normandy , they look like mobile shubbery ,but you can still make out its a vehicle
(https://s2.postimg.org/ovp0xtjk5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101_I-738-0275-10_Bei_Villers-_Bocage_getarnte.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ovp0xtjk5/)

(https://s2.postimg.org/63d5uaklx/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101_I-301-1955-17_A_Nordfrankreich_Panzer_V_P.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/63d5uaklx/)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 17, 2018, 02:43:49 PM
Not much update since late November last year...

With the Panzer IV Digital Library basically completed, we are now readying the files for mould making. At the same time, we are already making expansion sets... A Wirbelwind turret that will replace the original Panzer IV one on a late production model...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20180115-01_zpsd1flgnep.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20180115-02_zps4trcl52z.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20180115-04_zpsvqfzjtso.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20180115-03_zpspxpj8kfo.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20180115-05_zpsilaes3bv.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 17, 2018, 05:19:15 PM
I hope the turret armour and the quad can be painted separately and then assembled later, even with the top section removed it would be difficult to paint the quad.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 17, 2018, 06:21:56 PM
I hope the turret armour and the quad can be painted separately and then assembled later, even with the top section removed it would be difficult to paint the quad.

The Flakvierling is a single piece (after assembly) and can be painted separately before glueing it down to the turret (together with the gun crew if you wanted).  The upper turret piece should be a snap fit to the bottom piece with ease after painting the interior.  Then you can cover the interior with masking material (towel, masking tape, sponge etc) for the outer surface paint job!  ;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 17, 2018, 09:12:45 PM
Good planning.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: ripley on January 17, 2018, 09:26:12 PM
Looks very nice . Good to see you remembered to add the spare barrel boxes ( engine deck sides ) and remove the small turret motor  muffler ( not needed as these thing turned by hand ! ) , the Warlord crew just put their resin turret on a standard tank hull  ::)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 17, 2018, 09:40:56 PM
Looks very nice. Good to see you remembered to add the spare barrel boxes ( engine deck sides ) and remove the small turret motor muffler ( not needed as these thing turned by hand !), the Warlord crew just put their resin turret on a standard tank hull  ::)

Attention to details is what we are good at... and we are not WLG!  Don't like the comparison, lol.  ;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Pinky on January 18, 2018, 09:34:13 AM
Well you can't avoid the comparisons with WG.  It comes with the territory!

Have the errors in the Ausf J design been fixed?  I'd like to see the basic Panzer IV types on their way before the specialised variants.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 18, 2018, 12:15:50 PM
Have the errors in the Ausf J design been fixed?  I'd like to see the basic Panzer IV types on their way before the specialised variants.

All had been taken care of, sir!

The specialised variants are something that is quick to do with whatever drawings are on hand... and had to do them "before" the project went lukewarm.  Restarting older projects have a lot of preparation work to do.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: Jimmy_P on January 22, 2018, 08:22:56 AM

Wirbelwind turret would be a neat option. Didn't know about the small details the WLG one is missing, will skip that and wait for Rubicon then!

Just curious have you looked at the Ostwind etc as well? Probably being a bit optimistic on what would fit sprue wise but an expansion box like your half track ones with Wirbelwind and Ostwind turrets would be ace.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 22, 2018, 05:01:16 PM
I suspect a Wirbelwind would be an option after Rubicon add the 37mm Flak 43 to their library (also used on the SDKFZ 7 http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=514.msg7342#msg7342 (http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=514.msg7342#msg7342)).
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 180131
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 31, 2018, 06:03:22 PM
Printed prototype of the 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/FlaK%2036%20PzIV-H%20180127-1_zpseeohp9xx.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/FlaK%2036%20PzIV-H%20180127-2_zpsqfaps6ez.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 180131
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 31, 2018, 08:32:28 PM
Looks good.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 180131
Post by: Swamprat33 on January 31, 2018, 09:49:29 PM
I have one of the WLG Wirblewinds on the paint table right now.
As others have said, the hull is a bog standard resin panzer IV ausf.H and includes gun cleaning tubes for the 75mm and left the motor gear housing on the rear.
There was quite a lot of work to get the hull looking right, but overall, now correct, it is still very basic detail.

The Wirblewind and the Jagdpanther are the 2 models i am now most looking forward to.

Having said that I am also wanting 3 decent Panzer IV ausf J which should (I hope) be available soon.

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213
Post by: Rubicon Models on February 13, 2018, 02:11:09 PM
Finally get the Wirbelwind prototype completed...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-01_zps2eindmvm.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-02_zpsuriuf5cz.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-03_zpsrw6qj6oh.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-04_zpsxnzk7jhj.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-05_zpszhlmekcf.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-06_zpsw4ylor8q.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panzer%20IV/Wirbelwind%20Prototype%20180212-07_zpsn0dnfgvr.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on February 13, 2018, 04:57:55 PM
That is looking very good.

The forward planning on the new Panzer IV is really paying off.
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213
Post by: ripley on February 13, 2018, 09:44:28 PM
Looking good . Just so you know , you've got the jack block on the Whirbel mounted up side down , and  the driver hatches should probably not have the round signal port hatch on them , IRC that was phased out in the E version . Aside from that , turrets looking great
Title: Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind Prototype 180213
Post by: Jaeger on February 14, 2018, 06:38:08 AM
Oh my!
When may I get these?
An 88 on a Pzkw IV chassis would be a nice one off, cool objective but a Flakpanzer Wirbelwind, what a dream come true.
It looks to be a fantastic kit. 
I don't want to wait until 2019.  I hope it's available soon.
SOON!