Rubicon Models

Rubicon Models => Wish Lists => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on November 20, 2014, 05:20:10 PM

Title: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Rubicon Models on November 20, 2014, 05:20:10 PM
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Misc%20Images/FBGunSurvey02_zps2b2b7c6e.jpg)

We are doing a survey on what type of small arms and heavy weapons do you want to see in PLASTIC!

Please note, this applies to both Axis and Allies.

To participate, simply leave us a message under this post (and this post only), we will gather all information and use it for references in our future projects.  Here is the basic format we would like to see"

1) Country
2) Weapon Type
3) Weapon Name or Designation

You can write down as many as you want, but we can assure you are not getting it for this Christmas!

Thanks a lot!
;)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: VolleyfireAndy on November 20, 2014, 05:40:09 PM
Great idea! I'd like to see a British plastic 25pdr, a US M101a1 105mm Howitzer, German LeFH 105mm gun and a Russian M1938 122mm gun. I think those would fill a void, especially if you could do them in a bundle pack with their tractors!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Johanem on November 20, 2014, 05:45:58 PM
1. French
2. AT gun
3. 47 mm (SA mle 1937)

1. French
2. AT gun
3. 25 mm Hotchkiss
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: poiter50 on November 20, 2014, 05:52:32 PM
German 75mm Infantry Gun
British 2 pdr Anti Tank Gun
British 3.7" Mountain Gun
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Marecki on November 20, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
Great idea!

Here are my proposals:

1) Soviet
2) Heavy Machine Gun
3) DSHK Heavy Machine Gun Team

1) Soviet
2) Medium Artillery
3) 122mm A-19 Gun

1) Soviet
2) Heavy Artillery
3) 152mm ML-20 Gun




Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Chrisjan89 on November 20, 2014, 06:11:40 PM
Some of these would awesome :)

1) Japanese
2) Anti-tank gun
3) Type 1 Japanese Anti-Tank gun

1) Japanese
2) Anti-air gun
3) Type 98 20m AA gun
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Perzan on November 20, 2014, 06:20:12 PM
British:
1) QF 3,7 inch howitzer
2) 25 punder
3) QF 6 pounder (also doubles up as US 57mm AT gun)
4) 20mm Oerlikon or Polsten

US
1) M101a1 105mm howitzer
2) 40mm Bofors

Also, it would be great to see the smaller tanks, like Pzkfw I or Pzkfw II or Vickers in plastic - they usually had multiple versions and a plastic multi-version kit would be awesome!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Vanth on November 20, 2014, 06:25:14 PM
British Quad Polsten AA Gun, it's a model that no one produces for wargamers as far as I have found so far.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Tim Young on November 20, 2014, 06:53:51 PM
Germany
 possibly a support weapons pack with the 75 mm infantry gun, the 37 mm and the 50 mm anti tank guns. If there is room in the corner of a spru an 81 mm morter
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Rich H on November 20, 2014, 07:02:36 PM
Russian
DShK, gun shield and ground tripod as well as tank AA mount
DT MMG with tank AA mount
ROKS2 flamethrower
122mm howitzer
152mm howitzer

Thanks!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Russian1812 on November 20, 2014, 07:35:37 PM
All medium mortars and support machine guns and British 25pdr and 6pdr
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: BlackHussarMiniatures on November 20, 2014, 08:14:21 PM
Great! I need all of them.... but first Early War:

PaK 36
PaK 38
leFH18 (with Option to leFH18M)




Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Laffe on November 20, 2014, 08:48:07 PM
German,
Heav AT rifle/light AT gun
2.8 cm sPzB 41, used on it's own early on and then put on Sdkfz 221, 250 and 251's.

German
Light infantry gun
7,5 cm le.IG 18, standard close support infantry gun

German
Anti-tank rocket gun
8.8 cm Raketenwerfer 43 ("Puppchen") -- basically a Panzerschreck on wheels, but around 3000 were made.

Will be back with more suggestions.


Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Thomas Nissvik on November 20, 2014, 08:57:14 PM
Another vote for the US 105mm howitzer, lots of those in Indo-China.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Pinky on November 20, 2014, 10:04:56 PM
1) Germany
2) anti-tank gun
3) 88mm Flak 36

1) Britain
2) anti-tank gun
3) 6pdr and Lloyd Carrier

1) USSR
2) anti-tank gun
3) 76mm ZIS-3
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Tony1955 on November 20, 2014, 11:14:12 PM
Heres my list

Soviet
122 mm gun M1931/37 (A-19)
100 mm field gun M1944 (BS-3)
Does a Katyusha count?

German
7.62 cm Pak 36(r)
12.8 cm Pak 44
2.8 cm sPzB 41
8.8 cm Pak 43

Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: SHOGUN_YAMATO on November 21, 2014, 03:09:18 AM
I second on every form of DShK, especially a pintel mounted version like this one:

(http://s28.postimg.org/aaz6z6uft/DSh_K_1938_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/aaz6z6uft/)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Marecki on November 21, 2014, 02:57:11 PM
I forgot the most important thing:

1) Soviet
2) Transport
3) ZIS-6 Truck or GAZ Truck

Possible with Tokariev 4M Quad Maxim option!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Anfernee on November 21, 2014, 03:23:42 PM
Definitely second the British Polsten AA Gun in either single, triple or quad mounts. Also the Soviet 122 mm gun and a DShK that could double as a pintle.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Titolede on November 22, 2014, 04:25:32 AM
1) Germany
2) Medium Artillery
3) 10.5CM LEFH 18/40

1) Germany
2) Heavy Artillery
3)  SIG33 15CM HOWITZER

1) Soviet
2) Medium Artillery
3) 122mm A-19 Gun

1) Soviet
2) Heavy Artillery
3) 152mm ML-20 Gun
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: robbie039 on November 24, 2014, 06:43:02 AM
Germany : 88mm Pak\Flak
                 120 mm mortar
                  75 mm PAK 38

USA :       155MM Howitzer
                75 mm pack howitzer

Gb             17 POUNDER QF
                   6 POUNDER QF

and of course varrious : 50,60 81 mm mortars





Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: MDPolo on November 24, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
British:

Medium Artillery
BL 5.5-inch Medium Howitzer

Heavy Artillery
BL 7.2-inch Heavy Howitzer

Anti-Air:
20mm Polsten Cannon with options for up to four barrels.
3.7" QF AA Gun
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Laffe on December 01, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Germany : 88mm Pak\Flak
                 120 mm mortar
                  75 mm PAK 38


Not to nitpick, but which 88 do you want, the FLAK version or the PAK version? Same gun in two very different carriages.
Also, the 75mm PAK is the PAK40, the PAK 38 is 50mm, which do you mean?
Unless you of course mean the 75mm PAK 97/38 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Pak_97/38) based on the French model 1897 gun.

Quote
USA :        75 mm pack howitzer
Gb             17 POUNDER QF
                   6 POUNDER QF

Agree with all the above.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Cat on December 10, 2014, 04:12:05 AM
Ooh, ooh!  Whatever towed guns you might make, please design the kit so that when assembled the trails are movable and can be posed in towed and deployed position as needed during gaming.  Even if I have metal kits for guns, I would replace them with articulated plastic ones!

British/US
Anti-Tank
QF 6pdr/57mm Gun M1
Provide different Brit/US tire options

US
Anti-Tank
3" Gun M5
(which shares carriage parts with: 105mm Howitzer M2)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Preda on December 15, 2014, 04:02:12 AM
Since small arms where mentioned, i Vote for the German STG44, you can get them both in resin or metal, both are a pain in the ass to add to a model ;(
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: trick34 on December 15, 2014, 04:30:01 AM
Germany:
Weapon: Multi Rocketlauncher
Weaponname: Nebelwerfer 41, Nebelwerfer 43

Germany
Weapon: Selfprop Multi Rocketlaunscher
Name: Maultier

France
Weapon: Light Howitzer
Name: 75mm 1897
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Laffe on December 15, 2014, 07:11:41 AM
I didn't notice you were asking about small arms too... well, basically all of them would be useful! However, more important I think would be to also include various ammo boxes, magazines, spare barrel casings etc.

Take a look at Tamiya's 1/35 weapon sets for instance. Here is the german one:
(http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/list/35mm_img/35111m.jpg)

It has a lot of different weapons as well as ammo cases and holsters and pouches for the various weapons. It's not perfect as I would have liked it to have ammo belts as well, and a spare barrel case for the machine guns. Also note that this set is both for early and late war, featuring both a SturmGewehr 44 as well as a ERMA MP35 submachine gun.

It might be better to produce sets for early or late war, and include stuff like personal kit as well.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Swamprat33 on February 26, 2015, 09:00:55 PM

1) Britain
2) anti-tank gun
3) 6pdr and Lloyd Carrier


OH yes, Please do the Loyd Carrier as no one does this in 1/56.
The Warlord Carden Loyd Carrier is NOT the same and is totally unsuitable for any post 1940 game as could not tow a 6 pounder or anything else for that matter.

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: bigstu on August 17, 2015, 03:19:53 AM
First  would like to say I would always buy plastic over resin/metal, not just because of lower cost, but because of ease of assembly, and I hate having my fingers glued together! I only went back to wargaming because of 28mm plastic soldiers!

Most of your customers are table gamers, (and collectors), so the most useful would be direct fire weapons, particularly anti-tank guns, 6pdr/17pdr/5.0cm/7.5cm/3-inch/ZiS-3 etc.

Also, light A/A weapons used in the ground role, particularly the 2cm flak 38. together with carriage.

For heavy weapons I strongly suggest sprues containing weapons that can supplement the other plastic manufacturers ranges, namely MG34/42 on tripod mount, TMi43, 8.1cm mortars & flamethrowers.for the Germans, and their equivalents in other armies. That way you could supplement your plastic figures, or convert to mortar crews, MG support, and Pioneers.

Anti-tank gun crews!

I would buy all of the above.

Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: elias.tibbs on August 17, 2015, 03:34:06 AM
Long Tom.. Hopefully with an M4/M5 tractor ;)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: von Klinkerhoffen on April 24, 2016, 04:25:43 PM
USA
Anti-tank gun
90mm (3.5") M1A1 (the one mounted on a cruciform) plus M4 tractor to tow  :)

(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc376/vonKlinkerhoffen/WW2%20Vehicles/M1A1_01_zps6v5hoanl.jpg)
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc376/vonKlinkerhoffen/WW2%20Vehicles/m4_high_speed_tractor_zpsvfplnad9.jpg)

USA
Artillery - Howitzer
105mm M2A1

German
Flak/anti-tank
Flak 36 88mm

German
Anti-tank
Pak 44 128mm Kanone 43 bzw.44
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014
Post by: Rubicon Models on May 09, 2016, 10:54:18 PM
With the 250/251 expansion projects moving forward and queuing up for mould making, we now have
some time to really looking into wrapping up some open-end 3D drawings.  Here is one of them:

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/AT%20Guns/PaK36%203D-Drawing%20160509-1_zpsbokf3bzr.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/AT%20Guns/PaK36%203D-Drawing%20160509-2_zpsshq6th3v.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/AT%20Guns/PaK36%203D-Drawing%20160509-3_zps1xtnd8h7.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Pinky on May 10, 2016, 12:09:26 AM
It's a nice design, but I'd hope your first foray into artillery isn't the Pak 36.  It was well and truly obsolete before most of the vehicles you have depicted in kit form saw service. 
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on May 10, 2016, 12:53:41 AM
Looks good. Does the bottom of the gun shield (below the axle) fold up for travel?

I do agree with Pinky that with your current range being mainly late War, that this might be something for when you have an early war range.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Rubicon Models on May 10, 2016, 01:17:15 AM
It is basically a work-in-progress to add "base and wheels" to our existing weapons... then adding crew to them.
So there is no particular order of what to begin with... for the Germans, it will be the PaK 36 and the PaK 75...
may be some AA guns later!
;)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: chrismanu87 on May 10, 2016, 08:11:55 PM
Great idea!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Swamprat33 on October 27, 2016, 03:17:27 AM
Hi Rubicon, I have just got a third Opel Blitz to convert into a flak wagon. I was hoping to use a 37mm Flak 36 or flak 43.
The 20mm flak in all variants is available from a number of sources, but, unfortunately no seems to do a 37mm flak in 1/56 scale.

This might be a good place to start.

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: bluewolf on December 23, 2016, 10:29:13 AM
German 150 mm railway guns.

http://kinkyasiangirls.pw/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tumblr_npaypito5o1s6zihxo1_500.jpg
(https://s27.postimg.org/i8kj2axin/tumblr_npaypito5o1s6zihxo1_500.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/i8kj2axin/)

Thor!
http://informedconsentnow.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/karlgerat040.jpg


(https://s28.postimg.org/f1tug9szd/karlgerat040.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/f1tug9szd/)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2017, 02:31:14 AM
Just to push the 17 pounder AT gun, there is the M5 Stuart Gun Tractor, which should be a simple variant on your existing M5 kit.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oHwFPMcFLI8/WG6MJDj-VaI/AAAAAAAABuw/brhL5E1F5QYiW1o84tF24M8NRRZ0hCdGgCEw/s1600/IMG_8898.JPG)

Some more photographs here:http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/m5-combat-vehicle-stuart-gun-tractor.html
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ripley on January 06, 2017, 03:39:54 AM
Neat . You would need a new upper hull or a template on where to cut . A couple of front seats , transmission , steering levers and maybe a drive shaft and cover . Or did they leave the raised floor in this
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2017, 04:55:43 AM
The deck where the turret fits is separate, the M8/M5A1 has two decks.

The rest of the exterior looks the same. Will need the grousers (as mentioned in the stowage thread).

I could not see into the crew area.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2017, 05:13:41 AM
Pinky: is there an entry on this vehicle in the Tankograd book?
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ripley on January 06, 2017, 09:36:38 AM
You could probabaly make you own groucers out of Plastruct T channel . Cut to length and add a support end . Just lots and lots cutting ;D
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Pinky on January 06, 2017, 10:42:39 AM
Pinky: is there an entry on this vehicle in the Tankograd book?

No, it only covers the basic M5/M5A1.

Did this gun tractor tow the 17-pdr?  I thought they used Crusader tractors for that.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2017, 05:16:31 PM
Did this gun tractor tow the 17-pdr?  I thought they used Crusader tractors for that.
I remember seeing it said that it was used to tow 17 pounders while researching it, but cannot remember where.

I also cannot remember what it said at Duxford. There is the possibility it was in the post war section (in my defence you can see the sectioned Jagdpanther next to it).
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2017, 05:19:33 PM
You could probabaly make you own groucers out of Plastruct T channel . Cut to length and add a support end . Just lots and lots cutting ;D
That might put a bit of strain on my tenuous grip on sanity (YMMV).
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ripley on January 07, 2017, 11:23:51 AM
You could wait for Rubicon or some after market company ( S&S / Company B ) to make some or make your own . I wanted open crew  hatches , ,I just love adding full crews  , goes back to my 1/35 modelling days I guess  :-[ . The 1st kits by Rubicon and Warlord only had commanders hatches open ,( the newer kits by both companies seem to have fixed this omission) . Well I've opened 3 drivers hatches on my T-34s as well as the SU-85 . Ive opened 3 loader hatches on T-34 85s , 2 pairs of turret doors on Panzer IVs and 1 Panzer III  . As well both front crew  hatches on 3 Panzer IVs , the rear escape hatch on a Panther  and the trickiest  kit bash , the rear doors on Warlords 251 C  .  Ok , the part you remove is trash and you have to scratch a new hatch but most are squares or circles , how hard is that ? I can add crews to my kits while the other dozen BA players in my area can't . Nothing says dead tank  more than no crew and all hatches open . I've also made my own schurtzen rails and panels so I can model damaged or missing pieces .  Really easy actually , add the hanger arms to the side of the tank , use the kit panel piece as a template to form your rail and then cut thin plastic card the size each single panel , add the ones you want , job done . You never know what you can do till you try . Mind you I still can't figure out this photo bucket thing  ::)
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 07, 2017, 04:34:39 PM
Mind you I still can't figure out this photo bucket thing  ::)
Me neither.

I just use Google's Blogspot (other blogging options are available), there are a number of posts on my blog along the lines of "for a discussion on ...".

Then I just copy and paste the image link into the forum post.
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Pinky on January 09, 2017, 10:28:46 AM
There is an 'Add image to post' button below the frame you type in.  It's very easy to upload images from your computer.  So no excuses, Ripley - get some photos up!
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ripley on January 09, 2017, 11:07:51 AM
OK THIS IS A TEST !  Got this AFV Club "cute " kit on order cause I just love KV IIs
(https://s24.postimg.org/uzrmkiwi9/afv_cute_edition_kv_ii_wqt_002_9889520b3bb6d648a.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/uzrmkiwi9/)
It works ! Now how do I get my phone pictures to my computer ???
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 09, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
Cute!

If you have an Android 'phone and you have it set up to backup to the cloud, you can just log in to Google on your computer and select Photos. The contents of your 'phone should then be available to download.

Alternatively, you can connect your 'phone to your computer with a USB lead. PCs can use the file explorer, Mac's need a free application. If you have a recent version of Android you will need to tell it to allow access over the cable, there should be an icon at the top of the screen.

No idea on Apple without using their magic string. I have never tried it (I just emailed my self).
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ripley on January 09, 2017, 09:32:11 PM
Sounds complicated . I'll get my son to hook me up when I see him later this week . All this computer geek talk  ::) . Mind you the SdKfz , Stug and Nue stuff we talk about confuses a tons of people too  :D
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Chucktastic on January 10, 2017, 02:08:47 AM
British (& allied)
40mm
AA

British (&allied)
20mm
AA

British
Polsten 20mm
AA

German
88mm
AA & AT

German
Quad 20mm
AA

Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: Lovstrom on January 10, 2017, 03:38:02 AM
When I read small arms I read the rifles and smgs and Lmgs. Can there be enough of good German ,British American and Russian small arms?
I want my Germans with the basic humble rifle the way the squads where really made up.

Sven
Title: Re: SURVEY: Small Arms & Heavy Weapons - Nov 2014 - Updated 160509
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 17, 2017, 06:39:24 PM
Okay, found the reference to the M5 tractor hauling the 17 pounder.

"This adapted Stuart VI (M5) was used by the British Army. Its turret was removed in order to carry extra personnel and supplies, and a towing hook has been fitted. It was used to haul the 17-pounder anti-tank gun."

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000110

The M5 top plate could be included in the 17 pounder it (hint...).