Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => General Discussions => Topic started by: Pinky on January 28, 2017, 05:24:55 pm
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Happy Chinese New Year everyone...
I spent a bit of time digging up genuine colour photos of WW2 vehicles, to get a better idea of the colours and the weathering. Here are a few (I'm sure some of you have seen some of them before). I've tried to find photos that haven't been re-touched, or colourised. I haven't adjusted them at all. There are a lot of famous colour photos from Signal, but they tend to be very washed out, probably as a result of the limitations of colour printing at the time.
US jerrycans. The colour seems different to olive drab on most of them, but you can see some darker ones. Note the weathering, and the spot of red near the handle.
(https://s27.postimg.org/x16pybgmn/IMG_0020.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/x16pybgmn/)
A beautifully clear photo of a jeep (it looks fairly new). Note the colour of the stowage, and the way the dust has accumulated.
(https://s27.postimg.org/dkm0bslin/IMG_0022.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dkm0bslin/)
A French Sherman, probably an M4A2 and probably also quite new. Note how dark the olive drab is, and the light colour of the dust. The appearance of the tracks and stowage is also interesting.
(https://s27.postimg.org/5t5ad8hdb/IMG_0023.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5t5ad8hdb/)
Early Churchills in training. This shows how mud accumulates, and the different colours that result as it dries. Note also how the paint tends to wear away rather than chip.
(https://s23.postimg.org/bkrk9ca93/IMG_0025.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/bkrk9ca93/)
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A dark grey Panzer IV. The dust contrasts strongly with the grey. There is a large collection of similar colour slides of WW2 German subjects released by Bundesarchiv.
(https://s27.postimg.org/s9i5uladr/IMG_0028.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/s9i5uladr/)
Another Panzer IV, in close up. This shows how the paint becomes shiny from wear. I think there is a bit too much blue in this photo - apparently a common issue with certain types of colour film at the time. Note how monochrome the tank is, especially with the layer of dust. There seems to be some chipping around the front mudguards - but almost no rust.
(https://s28.postimg.org/gp50pzag9/IMG_0040.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/gp50pzag9/)
A Panzerjaeger I. The grey looks much more weathered, and may have faded a bit. Note how bright the bare metal is where the track teeth meet the wheels.
(https://s27.postimg.org/r8hx5gte7/IMG_0030.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/r8hx5gte7/)
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A Panzer IV of Panzer Lehr in a classic 3-colour scheme. While the colours have been sprayed fairly evenly, it's quite rough. This is how it was usually done, not the elaborate patterns depicted on many models. I think the barrel is grey, possibly still in heat-resistant primer.
(https://s28.postimg.org/smbe5zth5/IMG_0029.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/smbe5zth5/)
A Panzer IV from a column knocked out in Italy. A combination of dust and the effects of a fire has almost obliterated the colour scheme.
(https://s28.postimg.org/nc6fep989/IMG_0034.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nc6fep989/)
Another knocked out Panzer IV from the same column. You can see vestiges of the colour scheme under the layers of dust and grime. Note again how roughly applied the colours are.
(https://s28.postimg.org/nq7reatbt/IMG_0038.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nq7reatbt/)
A destroyed Marder. This exceptionally clear photo shows that dark yellow could be almost pink in hue. The camo pattern is very crude and might have been applied by hand. Note the absence of chipping. And rust.
(https://s27.postimg.org/pgfpvpy9b/IMG_0021.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pgfpvpy9b/)
A column of StuG IIIs in Russia. This is one of the few relatively clear photos I could find of Panzers in a clean 3-colour scheme. Again, the dark yellow looks almost pink, and contrasts a lot with the other 2 colours. It seems too pale, but based on the previous photo it appears to correct.
(https://s23.postimg.org/ub987fig7/IMG_0039.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ub987fig7/)
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Finally, a fascinating photo of a Panther production line, which apparently came from Steve Zaloga. The comments were added as part of a discussion about primer colour.
(https://s23.postimg.org/tkjo5uoh3/IMG_0033.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/tkjo5uoh3/)
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These are great. Thanks for sharing.
Very revealing, as your comments intimate... Shiny metal where wheels meet tracks - something virtually never shown by modellers; hastily and roughly daubed on camo schemes - not the pinpoint accurate décor schemes beloved of AFV modellers; and a lot less chipping than you see on most models (mine included!)
Really interesting.
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Really great pictures . Always loved looking at old LIFE Magazines my grand dad had way back in the 60s . A lot of the pictures would be too graphic in todays PC world , lots of dead , blown up and flame thrower crispy enemy soldier pictures . Neat picture of the grey Panzer IV E (? ) , looks to have a non standard ( unit built ) turret stowage box .
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Neat picture of the grey Panzer IV E (? ) , looks to have a non standard ( unit built ) turret stowage box .
I think it's an earlier version, judging from the long muffler (wasn't that shortened on the Ausf E?). Maybe an Ausf B or C retrofitted with a non-standard Rommelkeiste?
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Could be D , but I think its a E because of the armored smoke candle box on top of the long muffler ( shorter muffler came out on the F ) . Also seen pictures of tanks missing mufflers completely , hard to sneak up on people ::) . Either way , cool picture . A lot of war time pictures just say " Panzer IV of this unit passing this town " , they really didn't go into super detail for us modellers 70 years later , B@sterds !
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US jerrycans. The colour seems different to olive drab on most of them, but you can see some darker ones. Note the weathering, and the spot of red near the handle.
(https://s27.postimg.org/x16pybgmn/IMG_0020.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/x16pybgmn/)
Pinky, we still had the same on our jerrycans in the army. The red "spot" is in fact a small metal plate which was attached to the handles, It came in red (petrol), yellow (diesel) or white (water)
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Can anyone make out where the original Panzer IV picture was taken? Either by reading the road sign (my eyesight can't make it out), or perhaps the architecture.
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Pinky, we still had the same on our jerrycans in the army. The red "spot" is in fact a small metal plate which was attached to the handles, It came in red (petrol), yellow (diesel) or white (water)
Thanks, that's interesting. It's a detail I've never seen depicted on a model.
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Can anyone make out where the original Panzer IV picture was taken? Either by reading the road sign (my eyesight can't make it out), or perhaps the architecture.
Good question. The original Bundesarchiv caption (cropped off) says it was taken in June 1941. The heavy stowage is typical of 1941-42; it must the Eastern Front.
Here are some more photos - they have their Bundesarchiv captions which say they were taken in 1942. These definitely look like they're in the Ukraine - you can see Von Kleist's 'K' symbol on the glacis of the Panzer IV in the top photo, which means it's part of Army Group South. Can anyone identify the unit marking on the mudguard of the Horch in that photo?
(https://s29.postimg.org/tst1iarmr/IMG_0042.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/tst1iarmr/)
(https://s29.postimg.org/iuhs0431f/IMG_0044.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/iuhs0431f/)
(https://s29.postimg.org/5rm5guctf/IMG_0045.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5rm5guctf/)
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Here's an interesting one. The colours aren't as clear as I'd like, but it shows a Panzer IV Ausf F1 passing an Ausf F2, and the latter seems to be camouflaged with dark yellow over dark grey. The Bundesarchiv caption says 1941, which must be wrong (so the captioning on other photos may also be inaccurate); I'm guessing this is actually late 1942.
The Ausf F1 is almost certainly the same vehicle as the one seen parked next to a house in the first photo in the post above (note the officer riding along). Its turret number starts with a '4', as does the Ausf F2's. Note that the vehicle in the middle photo in the post above is '423' - I think all these tanks are from the same unit.
(https://s24.postimg.org/trt7cil0x/IMG_0043.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/trt7cil0x/)
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An Afrika Korps Kubelwagen. It seems to be overall brown yellow with an overspray of green - as per an order issued in early 1942. Note that some of what appears to be dark chipping is actually dirt on the slide.
(https://s27.postimg.org/5rn5o6kvz/IMG_0046.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5rn5o6kvz/)
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Very interesting photographs.
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Thanks so much for posting those pix.
I really like that apparent series. Its conjecture, but I enjoy the idea that a series of pix of a unit, all taken on a particular day, with one camera, one lens, hell, possibly even on only one roll of precious color film, are now our link to that particular past...
In terms of color reference, they are very useful, but not definitive. The various color casts caused by the limitations of 1940s film stock, and the bleaching of exposure, processing and printing, (let alone the scanning, color modeling and compression processes they went through to get them onto our - variable - computer screens) make some of them difficult to "translate". (I read some of the the German images as having a distinct pink color cast in the highlights, for example)
For what its worth, the road sign pointing left appears to me to be a 6 character name, starting with O or G, third character a descender (q, g or y) with a distance indicator (7 or 1 km) immediately after.
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The Horch fender has a large feather with a sword through it - looks like X . Not any Wehrmacht or SS Panzer symbol I can find in the books I have . I know I've seen it before , even on a 1/35 decal sheet . Infantry unit maybe ?
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I really like that apparent series. Its conjecture, but I enjoy the idea that a series of pix of a unit, all taken on a particular day, with one camera, one lens, hell, possibly even on only one roll of precious color film, are now our link to that particular past...
I know what you mean. I like to think one member of the unit had a camera, and took all of these over several months. Some seem to have been deliberately composed to emphasise the vastness of the Ukraine. It seems strange, for instance, that one tank would be sitting alone (or maybe the rest of the unit was behind the camera). As this unit may well have been swallowed up in Stalingrad, it's amazing theses photos survived.
In terms of color reference, they are very useful, but not definitive. The various color casts caused by the limitations of 1940s film stock, and the bleaching of exposure, processing and printing, (let alone the scanning, color modeling and compression processes they went through to get them onto our - variable - computer screens) make some of them difficult to "translate". (I read some of the the German images as having a distinct pink color cast in the highlights, for example)
I think the American photos are very close to 'true colour'. I agree that the colours may not be entirely accurate in others - apparently that's the type of film the Germans used (Agfacolor?). The Panzer IV series definitely has a bluish hue.
The Horch fender has a large feather with a sword through it - looks like X . Not any Wehrmacht or SS Panzer symbol I can find in the books I have . I know I've seen it before , even on a 1/35 decal sheet . Infantry unit maybe ?
I can't find a divisional sign that matches. The scimitar was used by an SS unit, but not this symbol.
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I came across this (fairly well known) pic of a Tiger II with its unusual 'Octopus' pattern - it's an interesting case in point of the difficulties in determining accurate colours from period pictures. The scheme is showcased in AK Interactives '1945 German Colours Camouflage Profile Guide' (it gets p.25 to itself) and claims the colours to most likely be RAL 7028 (Dunklegelb III) with the darker pattern being RAL 6003 (Olivegrun). I'm in no position to to gainsay their methodology (the authors claim objective analysis & their rationale seems fair) but it is a good example of how the colours on pictures aren't as fixed as we'd like, with the green just about discernable through the prominance of the overall brown cast - that said, it's a great pic!
(https://s30.postimg.org/v3b62hgrx/Tiger_II_with_unusual_ring_Octopus_scheme_2.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v3b62hgrx/)
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Very interesting. I hadn't see that photo in colour before. There are several kit versions of this vehicle. I guess one of the crew was a fan of surrealist art.
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The thought occurs to me the artwork on this tank could be post war. Or at least after it was abandoned. It just doesn't look right somehow.
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No this was knocked out late spring 45 in Hungry IRC . Its a one of a kind paint scheme , non others found according to various folks on the missing -lynx site . And these guys are the real deal , noted authors , historians and collectors of artifacts and photo collections . A real great site for learning about the design and use of both Allied and German vehicles as well as tons of fantastic model builds in numerous scales
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Thanks ripley. I guess I'd have felt a lot more comfortable if the picture was of the tank in service. You never know who was around with a can of paint.
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I assume whatever killed it caused a fire at the rear (hence the rusty area on the turret). The symbol on the glacis is a bit odd in position and form.
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I'm sure the swastika (which is the wrong way around) was painted by someone after it was knocked out.
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Found more info . Knocked out near Kassel Germany late April 45 ( not Hungry my bad :-[ ) One of last batch from factory , note narrow transport track . Mix of old and new parts , mg ring on turret , no foliage loops , older style front fender , no tool mounts . So the factory used up parts on hand to get it built , track factory had been bombed by now so no wide track . Supposed to have sat where it was knocked out till next year when it was cut up . During that time, nazi symbol added . Great contention on paint scheme as only green and yellow supposed to be used late Apr . Red might be rust from fire damage or primer ( oh the arguing on ML ::))
(https://s24.postimg.org/bzihf4d35/Octo_3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/bzihf4d35/)
(https://s30.postimg.org/3tru7lakt/Octo_4.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3tru7lakt/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/sojyyrh35/Octo_5.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/sojyyrh35/)
Only 7 or 8 close up photos of this beast known ( these are 3 ) Some more from a distance , said to be this tank , near overpass , Kassel . To my untrained eye , the sit of the tank on the verge , dirrection of turret , gun etc , it looks like it though . One of the holy Grails of WW2
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Nice detective work Ripley! There are pictures of other knocked out/abandoned AFVs with similar crude whitewashed swastikas - usually quite large & in places which would stongly suggest their addition was after the fact.
(Interestingly, quite a number of pictures of this particular Tiger II don't have the swastika on the glacis - it appears to have been added between the earlier pictures you posted & the one I did - perhaps added by the original photographers then?)
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There is a larger version of the colorized picture with a woman to the left of the tank . What looks like a road in the distance is really a frozen river ( picture taken spring 45 ? ) . They colored the tank but gave up on the far background as its all whites and greys ( could also be actual color of area in winter , it looks the same here in rural Alberta for 7 months of the year at least ::) ) This tank like the Tiger I with small crane in Italy leave a lot of questions unanswered .
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At the risk of heresy is it possible the octopus pattern is more representative of the tanks demise at the hands of the allies than it is this particularly ferocious cat? I confess I don't really have a clue but all the photo's appear to be after its demise.
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I'd suggest it was the crew's interpretation of the 'ambush' scheme - possibly using just green and dark yellow, but maybe by leaving primer visible as well. I can't see why anyone would have bothered with adding paint to a wreck (other than the reversed swastika, possible added to mark it as a German wreck for the purposes of collection). The tank would have been built in the Henschel factory in Kassel, and was (apparently) issued to s.Pz.Abt 510. The city was captured by the US Army.
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I like the ambush idea Pinky. Still, there may have been a lot of bored soldiers around shortly after the war. I think on balance the accepted wisdom is probably correct, although so far I remain in the 'don't know' camp (probably by myself!)
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On ML / Armorama , the thought that it was painted after it was knocked out was discussed . The majority figure , that with the bow MG still installed and a whole lot of removable metal pieces people could sell for scrap after the war , still on the vehicle ( U tow hooks , fenders , wheels and even track ) that it was KO'ed in that paint scheme . After 70 years the discussion continues....
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There were a couple of nice images of British armour (Sherman & A Crusader) in Tunisia & Sicily in 1943 in The Guardian this week. (The Sherman has another in its bewildering array of track shoes.)
(https://s8.postimg.org/qxwmapdsh/Sherman_Sicily_August_1943.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/qxwmapdsh/)
(https://s27.postimg.org/62u8xf0j3/Crusader_EL_Arrousa_Tunisia_May_1943.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/62u8xf0j3/)