Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on June 03, 2015, 11:08:15 pm
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M10/M36 Tank Destroyer
Once again, a US vehicle... a quick quote from Wikipedia...
Background History of the M10 / M36 Tank Destroyer
The M10 Tank Destroyer (christened the "Wolverine" by the British) was a WW2 US tank destroyer based on the chassis of the M4 Sherman tank fitted with the 3-inch (76.2 mm) M7 Gun. It was numerically the most important US tank destroyer of WW2 and combined a reasonably potent anti-tank weapon with a turreted platform. Despite the introduction of more-powerful types as replacements, it remained in service until the end of the war. A total of 6,706 were built between 1942 & 1943.
The British converted some M10s to use their successful 17-pounder (76 mm) anti-tank gun, which they designated as "17pdr SP Achilles". The turret needed modification to take the longer gun. The 17-pounder was of a similar bore, but longer and using a larger propellant charge had far superior armor penetration capability. It was used by the British, Canadian, and Polish armies in Italy and northwest Europe. About 1,110 were built.
The M36 Tank Destroyer (nickname "Jackson") was essentially an up-gunned M10 tank destroyer, replacing the former's 3 inch (76.2mm) M7 Gun with a powerful 90mm gun.
The M36 first served in combat in Europe in September 1944, where it proved to be a match for any of the tanks being fielded by the Germans. About 1,400 M36s were produced during the war. The need for 90 mm gunned tank destroyers was so urgent that, during October to December 1944, 187 conversions of standard M4A3 hulls were produced; these vehicles, designated M36B1, were rushed to the European Theater of Operations and used in combat alongside standard M36s.
The M36 also saw use in the Korean War, able to defeat any of the Soviet tanks used in that conflict. Some were supplied to the Koreans as part of the Military Assistance Program and served for years, as did re-engined examples found in Yugoslavia, which operated into the 1990s. Two remained in service with the Republic of China Army at least to 2001.
Objective of our 1/56 plastic kit will be as follow:
- a 3 sprue plastic kit to build either a M10 / M36 or a 17pdr SP Achilles
- a common M4A3 chassis with two transmission cover options
- three interchangeable turrets – M10 / 17pdr SP / M36
- simplified interior for all turrets (gun details, ammo rack, etc)
- minor detail changes for different variants (head lights, gun travel lock, etc)
- the M36 turret can be used with our M4A3 kit (280012) to become a M36B1
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36%20Line%20Drawing_zps3jtfbhvl.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10%20Wolverine_zpsiz05f8m9.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/17pdr%20SP%20Achilles_zpsjnkd0his.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M36%20Jackson_zpsu6mlcvsi.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M36B1_zpscseeujih.jpg)
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This project is finally realized because this had been a "Proposed Project". The forum link is here: http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=86.0
(1) M10 Wolverine / 17pdr SP Achilles 39 (39%)
(2) M10 Wolverine / M36 Jackson 12 (12%)
(3) M36 Jackson /17pdr SP Achilles 4 (4%)
(4) M18 Hellcat 45 (45%)
Total Members Voted: 100
Even though the M18 had a majority of 45 votes in a single category, the M10/M36/Achilles combined category has 55 votes.
After doing research on both history and game related matters, we have decided to start the M10/M36/Achilles project first. That doesn't mean we are not doing the M18 Hellcat... may be at a later date!
;)
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Do you think you can find a way of putting the MMG in the hull to make an M36B2 as well?
(http://www.geocities.jp/aobamil/shasin/M36B2/IMG_7049.jpg)
Looks really good, the fact that the m36 turret fits the M4 chassis is a good selling point.
As a mainly US player, I'm looking forward to this!
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Do you think you can find a way of putting the MMG in the hull to make an M36B2 as well?
The M36B2 is based on the M4A2 chassis, which is different from the M10's M4A3 chassis design. Even if we can "fake" it by adding a separate MG piece added to the front, because there is a thickness requirement for each part during the mould injection process, the ending result will not look natural. It might be easier for you to kit bashing it instead.
;)
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Makes sense, didn't realise it used a different chassis. It shouldn't be too hard to kit bash ^_^
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This looks like it will be a great kit - another excellent choice of subject. Some comments on the prototype drawings:
M10
- should be able to mount a .50 cal on the turret; this appeared on most M10s in US service
- seems to have an extra siren on the right side of the glacis; there should only be one on the left
Achilles
- note that the Achilles is actually a late model M10, fitted with a 17 pdr. So if you designed it so that the 3 inch gun also fits in this turret (which basically means providing another mantlet - unless the early version fits the late type turret), you'd be able to offer an additional version.
- appears to have 2 sirens instead of proper headlights
- I've never seen that armour plate on the glacis and suggest you omit it
- most Achilles seem to have had the step on the transmission housing (maybe add that to the late version cast transmission housing as well?)
M36
- should have the same headlights and siren as the M10
- note that the arrangement of the filler caps on the engine deck was different to the M10's (on the M10 they are grouped near the turret; on the M36 they are in a line). The M36 also had larger engine bay doors than the M10. This is because the M10 and the M36 had different engines. If the hull is the same as the M10's, then it's technically an M36B2 (724 of these were built on M10 hulls when the supply of M10A1 hulls dried up). See the diagrams below. Contrary to Spinfire's post, the M36B2 did not have a hull machine gun.
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Actually some Achilles did have the extra armor . There was a discussion on Armorama or Missing-Lynx a while ago when the Tamiya 1/48 scale Achilles was reviewed . The kit comes with the extra front hull armor . Someone posted war time pictures of this modification in combat . Never say never I guess . But very few got it as they were supposed to kill tanks from a distance , not up close , hence their thin armor to start with .
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That particular "extra amour" is optional. So can be mounted in place or replace with normal headlights. Don't think that's an issue here!
;)
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That particular "extra amour" is optional. So can be mounted in place or replace with normal headlights. Don't think that's an issue here!
My point is that if there was a choice between including that on the sprue and (say) providing more interior turret detail, I'd ditch the armour plate...
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This project is still in the design phase, will prepare 3d prototyping soon! Everything you see here is flexible and subjected to change, even after 3d prototyping. The most important objective is to keep the part count under 3 sprues and still keep the 3 turrets, which is already a challenge itself!
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Actually some Achilles did have the extra armor . There was a discussion on Armorama or Missing-Lynx a while ago when the Tamiya 1/48 scale Achilles was reviewed . The kit comes with the extra front hull armor . Someone posted war time pictures of this modification in combat . Never say never I guess . But very few got it as they were supposed to kill tanks from a distance , not up close , hence their thin armor to start with .
I found this photo of an early Achilles, which is the only M10-related vehicle I've ever seen with what looks like applique armour. Every reference I have on the M10 says that the applique armour kit (for which the large bolts on the M10 hull were intended) was never produced, so this may well be a field modification (it's hard to imagine armour this thin this making much difference!).
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From another forum by Pinky (?):
Most M36s were built on existing M10A1 hulls, which had a Ford petrol engine (the same as the M3A3). The placement of the filler caps on the engine deck was different from the M10, as was the engine access hatch (which was larger on the M10A1/M36). See the diagrams below. 1400 M36s were converted from M10A1s. When the supply of M10A1 hulls ran out, about 700 M36s were built on the basic M10 (diesel-engined) hull, and these were designated M36B2. The M36 also had a gun travel lock rather than the simple crutch on the M10.
It will be interesting to see how Rubicon deal with these details.
What if we tell you there are TWO rear engine top plates that you can swap? Will that answer your question?
This basically will add our variants total to SEVEN:
M10 - Diesel engine ~5000 vehicles
M10A1 - M4A3 chassis, Ford GAA gasoline engine ~1700 vehicles
17pdr SP IC - Diesel engine
17dpr SP IIC - Gasoline engine ~1100 vehicles (both version combined)
M36 - M4A3 chassis, Ford GAA gasoline engine ~1298 vehicles
M36B1 - on Medium Tank M4A3 hull and chassis ~187 vehicles
M36B2 - M4A2 chassis, GM 6046 diesel engine ~287 vehicles
Correct?
:D
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An optional engine deck would deal with the main difference. The M10 and M10A1 also had different exhausts - the M10A1/M36 had the same exhaust as the M4A3, and later vehicles had the rectangular vent that you've included on your M4A3 kit (although it's not entirely accurate).
The M10A1 did not see active service in its original guise. There was a decision to only send the diesel-engined M10 overseas, even thought the M10A1 was regarded as technically superior. The M10A1s were kept in the US for training, then converted into M36s (see below). So I query whether there's any value in mentioning this version as an option in your kit.
Note that the first production version of the M10 had improvised turret counterweights - basically just rectangular slabs. I wouldn't bother with this version, as they were quickly rebuilt (and looked horrible!).
Your seven versions would be:
M10 - early production (wedge-shaped turret counterweights) - 2850 built (including M10A1s).
M10 - late production (enlarged turret and 'duckbill' shaped turret counterweights) - 3200 built (including M10A1s)
Achilles 1c - 17 pdr conversion utilising the early M10 turret (few were converted and most sources say this version didn't see service, but some may have. Also, some field workshop conversions may have used the early production M10).
Achilles IIc - 17 pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret (i.e. with 'duckbill' counterweights) - 1017 converted. Not built on the M10A1; some sources say they were, but this must be incorrect (see the comment above about deployment of M10A1s). Remember also that the British didn't get any M4A3s, so it would have made no sense for them to use M10A1s.
M36 - converted from M10A1s (either altered on the assembly line or returned from the field to be converted - a total of 1413 built.
M36B1 - M36 turret installed on M4A3(W) hull because of the sudden realisation that the M10 was inadequate and there weren't enough M36s - 187 built.
M36B2 - M36 built on M10 hull when the supply of M10A1 hulls ran out - 724 built, using re-conditioned M10 hulls.
One final point I've noticed - your M36 prototype appears to have the post-war single-baffle muzzle brake (although it might just be the angle of the drawing). The WW2 version had a double baffle muzzle brake and no fume extractor. However, most WW2 M36s don't seem to have had a muzzle brake (and none had a fume extractor).
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This is just an exploration of what we can do. To keep the maximum variants on 3 sprues, we probably will not do the different exhausts - will only keep the M4A3 version. As you have already stated, the most useful for historical and gaming use would be:
M10 (late production) - enlarged turret with duckbill shaped counterweight (including M10A1s)
Achilles IIc - 17pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret with a different shaped counterweight
M36 - converted from M10A1s
M36B1 - the M36 turret is designed to fit onto our M4A3 kit
M36B2 - M36 using M10 hull
All drawings are done and is now waiting for 3D prototyping. Hopefully will see some samples within the next two weeks!
As for the M36 muzzle brake, we needed to double check with our existing references. As you mentioned in your comment, our initial design do not have a muzzle brake, but was added later after comparing notes at our production meeting.
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This is just an exploration of what we can do. To keep the maximum variants on 3 sprues, we probably will not do the different exhausts - will only keep the M4A3 version.
Maybe you can fudge that - there was a different type of exhaust vent for the diesel engine, which could cover up the rear exhausts and avoid having to modify your existing M4A3 hull pieces.
As you have already stated, the most useful for historical and gaming use would be:
M10 (late production) - enlarged turret with duckbill shaped counterweight (including M10A1s)
Achilles IIc - 17pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret with a different shaped counterweight
M36 - converted from M10A1s
M36B1 - the M36 turret is designed to fit onto our M4A3 kit
M36B2 - M36 using M10 hull
So no early M10 version at all? That does cut it down to two turrets, which is probably more practical. The Achilles would simply require a different gun and revised mantlet (as the Achilles conversion included a 'collar' and revised sight, as shown on your drawing). You can probably fudge most of the interior stowage differences between the M10 and the Achilles - they both had 6 rounds stowed down the rear turret wall, so maybe you just need to include optional gun breeches.
As for the M36 muzzle brake, we needed to double check with our existing references. As you mentioned in your comment, our initial design do not have a muzzle brake, but was added later after comparing notes at our production meeting.
The single baffle muzzle brake and fume extractor were introduced as part of a post-war refurbishment. This version saw acton with the Republic of Korea in the Korean War. I rather like the 90mm gun with a muzzle brake - it looks more impressive.
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So no early M10 version at all? That does cut it down to two turrets, which is probably more practical. The Achilles would simply require a different gun and revised mantlet (as the Achilles conversion included a 'collar' and revised sight, as shown on your drawing). You can probably fudge the interior stowage differences between the M10 and the Achilles.
Actually we need 3 turrets - M10 / Achilles / M36. For the Achilles turret, the rear turret armour plate slant angle is different from the normal M10; otherwise the Achilles-only counterweight won't fit on it!
The single baffle muzzle brake and fume extractor were introduced as part of a post-war refurbishment. This version saw acton with the Republic of Korea in the Korean War. I rather like the 90mm gun with a muzzle brake - it looks more impressive.
That's why we later added the muzzle brake back to the M36. Now just need to confirm the look of it with a little bit more research...
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As I've explained a couple of times, the Achilles turret is externally the same as the late M10. Same shape, same counterweights. The differences were the 17 pdr gun, revised internal stowage (the 17 pdr's rounds were larger than the 3 inch gun's), and a slightly modified mantlet. See the photo below of a standard late M10 turret. The late turret was chosen for the Achilles conversion because it was better balanced and roomier than the early M10 turret.
Also below is a late model M36 with the double baffle muzzle brake. Note that there is no fume extractor. By this time, the bolts on the side had disappeared.
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Thanks Pinky! We probably made you overworked as a freelance researcher, lol...
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Also below is a late model M36 with the double baffle muzzle brake. Note that there is no fume extractor. As the caption mentions, by this time the bolts on the side had disappeared (oops - I seem to have breached copyright!).
We have just updated our drawing replacing the post-war gun barrel with muzzle brake to a WW2 era version. Will send the file for 3D prototyping this week, and hopefully some photo of the physical design in about two week's time!
Can't wait!!
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Here is the revised turret for the M36 Jackson. Notable changes include a new gun barrel, which is actually longer than the previous version, and a WW2-era muzzle brake; the same double muzzle brake like those found on the M26 Pershing late in the war.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M36%20Jackson%20revised_zpsv7du6kx6.jpg)
We have also revised our technical drawings to include two versions of the rear engine compartment panel; thus enable you to build the vehicle with either a M10 or M10A1 chassis.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M10A1%20Chassis_zpsru9vg5xt.jpg)
Because of these changes and new updates, we now have problem fitting everything onto 3 sprues. Will try to resolve this problem after the 3D prototypes are done! Please feel free to comment!
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The M36 looks very good. You just need to revise the sirens - there should just be one beside the left hand headlight. Same applies to both hulls.
I don't know what you've done with the hull rears - let me know if you want some photos of the exhausts etc.
Do you need those hull interior parts? Could you drop those by making the turret basket a solid 'tub' shape? That's what Tamiya did with their M36, and it should be okay in this scale. And, assuming you're only doing the late M10 turret, you only need two different turrets.
I really think this kit will be worth all the effort. It's going to be a popular model.
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The M36 looks very good. You just need to revise the sirens - there should just be one beside the left hand headlight. Same applies to both hulls.
We will leave the sirens "as is" as they are separate parts. The M10 and M36 had different fixtures, and some are optional...
I don't know what you've done with the hull rears - let me know if you want some photos of the exhausts etc.
We have put in a lot of thoughts to it. There are some differences, but the rear exhausts had hide most of these. Decided not to make any changes to save sprue space. Here is a 3D view of the rear exhaust:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10%20Rear%20Exaust%20View_zpsp605k7ac.jpg)
Do you need those hull interior parts? Could you drop those by making the turret basket a solid 'tub' shape? That's what Tamiya did with their M36, and it should be okay in this scale. And, assuming you're only doing the late M10 turret, you only need two different turrets.
We usually will draw all visible parts, then we will decide what to simply after 3D prototyping. Another KEY factor we have to consider is shrinkage of extra thick parts which might blemished the surface area with shrinkage holes or undulating surfaces.
This is still not final until we have the 3D prototypes...
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We will leave the sirens "as is" as they are separate parts. The M10 and M36 had different fixtures, and some are optional...
No, the headlight and siren arrangement was the same on both vehicles (and why would there be two sirens?). The siren did not have a brush guard. You're probably looking at a post-war M36.
We have put in a lot of thoughts to it. There are some differences, but the rear exhausts had hide most of these. Decided not to make any changes to save sprue space.
It was the exhaust system that was different on both versions. But I guess few people will care.
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No, the headlight and siren arrangement was the same on both vehicles (and why would there be two sirens?). The siren did not have a brush guard. You're probably looking at a post-war M36.
Any pictures? Need some references... thanks!
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Apart from the photo of the late M36 I posted above? Ok - here is a photo of a standard M10 (I tried to find one which showed the glacis clearly), and two photos of M36s (couldn't find any clearer ones). Note the layout of the lights and siren, and that it's the same on both types of vehicle.
Note also that the M10 has the earlier, rounded transmission housing while the M36s have the later, more angular type. I hope you keep the choice of transmission housing in your kit.
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Thanks again, Pinky. Will look into these pics with our staff!
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3D prototypes of the M10/M36 project is finally done! Quite satisfied with the initial result. Going to make some minor changes to enhance the details and assembly... Now the most difficult process - what is going to stay and what is not! Too many parts right now, some need to be omitted!
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB01%20M10%20Chassis_zpsf5tihiin.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB02%20M10%20Rear%20Panel_zpsspsvx6ue.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB03%20M10%20Turrets_zpstyj6a06w.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB04%20M10_zps0ap5z9kl.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB05%20Achilles%20IIc_zpsuqzxui9e.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB06%20M36_zps8ohbtdft.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB07%20M36B1_zpstbiqanlr.jpg)
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Looking good! I really don't know how you can cut down the parts - unless you drop the early M10 turret, and just provide the parts for a late M10/Achilles. You could then include the ammo stowage in the turret rear, which is quite noticeable on the real vehicle. Just a thought - it'd still be a great kit.
The M36 still has the wrong (post-war) details on the 90mm gun barrel. It should also have a different gun travel lock - not the crutch on the M10/Achilles.
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The M36 still has the wrong (post-war) details on the 90mm gun barrel. It should also have a different gun travel lock - not the crutch on the M10/Achilles.
Of course we knew that! Just that when we made all the necessary changes, the files had already been send for 3D prototyping. We WILL have the new gun barrel with WW2 muzzle brake AND the M36 gun travel lock on the plastic sprue!
;)
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Cool. Looks like the M36 is sorted then!
Will we be able to build the late M10 without the 17pdr? Or is the parts count too high?
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Will we be able to build the late M10 without the 17pdr? Or is the parts count too high?
Yes, the guns are interchangeable between the two turrets without additional parts count... giving you all 4 combinations!
;)
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That's great. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Achilles had a modified mantlet, so strictly speaking you'd need alternate versions for the late M10 and the Achilles.
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Will we be able to build the late M10 without the 17pdr? Or is the parts count too high?
Yes, the guns are interchangeable between the two turrets without additional parts count... giving you all 4 combinations!
Just got the plastic test shots from the factory. As it turned out, you can only select two builds instead of all four... due to sprue space! Sorry!! :'(
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Not in a particular order as we have not yet labelled the sprues... Here is our Test Shot #1 sprues for our planned Q4/15 release - M10 / M36 Tank Destroyer!
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB03%20M10-M36%20TS1-150811-3_zpsiartveg2.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB01%20M10-M36%20TS1-150811-1_zps6oqkfkpi.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB02%20M10-M36%20TS1-150811-2_zpsm1ognbq7.jpg)
Enjoy!
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I've been waiting for this one. I'm planning to build at least 3 of these kits.
So the variants are the M10 (mid-production), Achilles and M36? If so, that seems fine - you've already packed a lot onto those sprues...
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So the variants are the M10 (mid-production), Achilles and M36? If so, that seems fine - you've already packed a lot onto those sprues...
From memory, here is what the sprues can built:
(1) M10 (mid/late production) - enlarged turret with duckbill shaped counterweight (including M10A1s)
(2) Achilles IIc - 17pdr conversion utilising the late M10 turret with a different shaped counterweight
(3) M36 - converted from M10A1s
(4) M36B1 - the M36 turret is designed to fit onto our M4A3 kit
(5) M36B2 - M36 using M10 hull
Now doing test fitting... once done, will paint some up for posting!
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I think there is still some confusion about M10 versions (the late M10 and the Achilles had the same enlarged turret and duckbill counterweights), but you seem to have all the pieces, so let's see what the test builds look like. The casting looks great, although the dark plastic makes it hard to work out what everything is.
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I think there is still some confusion about M10 versions (the late M10 and the Achilles had the same enlarged turret and duckbill counterweights)
Here is a line drawing (all from web search) comparison between the M10 / Achilles / M36B2 using the M10 chassis.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36%20Line%20Drawing%20Comparison%20v1s_zpsufcax2df.jpg)
Quick look at the turret between the M10 and Achilles are similar, but close inspection will reveal a lot of differences particularly the rear end of the turret. This is more significant when we started drawing both turrets, the rear sloping angle is different (hidden behind the counterweights).
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Yep, those drawings look fine. The point is that the Achilles did not have a special turret; the British used the late M10 turret (with the revised rear and duckbill counterweights), which they fitted with a 17-pdr. This mean revising the mantlet (by adding an armoured collar and changing the sight) and modifying the internal stowage a bit. Meanwhile, the US Army used the same late turret on its unmodified late M10s - see the example below.
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Yep, those drawings look fine. The point is that the Achilles did not have a special turret; the British used the late M10 turret (with the revised rear and duckbill counterweights), which they fitted with a 17-pdr. This mean revising the mantlet (by adding an armoured collar and changing the sight) and modifying the internal stowage a bit. Meanwhile, the US Army used the same late turret on its unmodified late M10s - see the example below.
This is true for late production models; however we have included an early/mid production version of the M10 turret to broaden the build choice.
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Okay, it was more an issue of how it's presented - the kit itself looks great, and it's cool that you've included the earlier turret as well. Looking forward to seeing the test build.
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A primed test sprues for the M10/M36 kit. Should have better details shown...
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB01%20M10-M36%20TS1-150820-1_zpsswhctbpw.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB02%20M10-M36%20TS1-150820-2_zpsxcr0ibwv.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB03%20M10-M36%20TS1-150820-3_zpseln047hk.jpg)
Close up view of the three mantlets, front transmissions, and rear tail section:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/FB04%20M10-M36%20TS1-150820-1_zpsyzbyyckb.jpg)
We are still making minor changes to the parts on the sprue for better fitting and details. Will post some test-assembled pictures of the tank soon!
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We are now painting up the test shot plastic after test-fitting.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-PIP-01_zpsc3pilcc0.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-PIP-02_zpsazcleetw.jpg)
Should be able to post the painted samples soon!
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(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10%20Collage%20150827-1_zpssyigljhl.jpg)
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That's an incredible number of variants in one kit! You even managed to squeeze in some good interior details on the turrets.
I see you kept that odd armour panel on the Achilles. Seems a bit pointless.
One construction point - the hatches on the M10 hull didn't open 'flat'; they opened at an angle, with the interior facing forwards.
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That's an incredible number of variants in one kit! You even managed to squeeze in some good interior details on the turrets.
I see you kept that odd armour panel on the Achilles. Seems a bit pointless.
This was being voted on by the studio staff... think is still okay to easily identify the TD is a British one, I think!
One construction point - the hatches on the M10 hull didn't open 'flat'; they opened at an angle, with the interior facing forwards.
Great help on this... now looking into a possible solution! Thanks!
:(
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One more thing (sorry!), but the post-war version of the M36 had the M3A1 90mm gun, which had a fume extractor on the barrel as well as the single baffle muzzle brake (i.e. just like your original prototype). So you need a whole new barrel for this version. However, most of these upgraded vehicles also had the armoured cover on the turret.
Regarding nomenclature, the M10 wasn't known as a 'Wolverine' in US service; it was the British name. It's usual to show the US and British names as alternatives (e.g. "M5A1/Stuart VI"). And the early production M10 had a different counterweight on the turret, so yours isn't the early production version.
So your versions are:
M10/Wolverine (mid production)
M10/Wolverine (late production)
M10A1 (mid production) - these were all rebuilt as M36s, so there wasn't a late production version; as mentioned previously, the M10A1 didn't see active service so it's not really worth mentioning.
Achilles IIc - I'm assuming the Achilles parts only fit the late production turret, so there's no Achilles Ic. Also, make sure that the Achilles is shown with an M10 hull, not an M10A1/M36 hull.
M36 (WW2 and postwar) - some sources say that only the M36B2 that was upgraded with the M3A1 90mm gun, but there are photos of South Korean M36s with this upgrade.
M36B1
M36B2 (WW2 and post-war)
Here's the driver's hatch:
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One more thing (sorry!), but the post-war version of the M36 had the M3A1 90mm gun, which had a fume extractor on the barrel as well as the single baffle muzzle brake (i.e. just like your original prototype). So you need a whole new barrel for this version. However, most of these upgraded vehicles also had the armoured cover on the turret.
We have a separate gun barrel (with fume extractor) and the single baffle muzzle brake for the post-war version. As for the armoured cover on the turret, to save sprue space, would rather had people kit bashing it... not a too difficult task at all. A few small plasticards will do the job.
As for the nomenclature, will leave that to the last phase of the project. Don't want to confuse our studio guys with so many names, as long as the final outcome sprues will cover all variants, that will be fine!
Think the driver hatch has been taken care of. We are not aware of the correct position when we took the picture...
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Achilles IIc - I'm assuming the Achilles parts only fit the late production turret, so there's no Achilles Ic. Also, make sure that the Achilles is shown with an M10 hull, not an M10A1/M36 hull.
It gun barrels are designed to fit both turrets, so should be able to do the Achilles Ic as well.
;)
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We have a separate gun barrel (with fume extractor) and the single baffle muzzle brake for the post-war version. As for the armoured cover on the turret, to save sprue space, would rather had people kit bashing it... not a too difficult task at all. A few small plasticards will do the job.
That's good - just can't see it in the photos.
You could have included the armoured cover instead of that front armour panel, but it doesn't matter (the armoured cover is kind of ugly anyway).
The M10/M36 variants are very confusing, aren't they.
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You could have included the armoured cover instead of that front armour panel, but it doesn't matter (the armoured cover is kind of ugly anyway).
The M10/M36 variants are very confusing, aren't they.
We have the cover drawn, but it bigger than the armour panel; plus it is post war...
...and the variants are indeed confusing because the changes are not gradual, complicated by field modifications!
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Finally some painted samples for the M10/M36 plastics!
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-00_zpshxkobtp1.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-01_zpsag2zibxh.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-02_zpsrs0nyadl.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-03_zpsklldlp7k.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-04_zps6c4nqvsx.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-05_zpsuc8zxsh4.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-06_zpsmaikij1f.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-07_zpsnxg2ywia.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-08_zpsfqvwtxqy.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-09_zpsgxadbxev.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-10_zpsn2kxbwgk.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-11_zpsjsyjb9ww.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-12_zps4h7jrfb0.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-13_zpsvtbdcdvd.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-14_zpsnlwymylb.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-15_zps3pjn7gop.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-16_zpsernaaruk.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-17_zpsbux51zix.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M10-M36%20Tank%20Destroyer/M10-M36-TS1-150926-18_zpsp7ayee4h.jpg)
Enjoy!
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Excellent, something to scratch the paint work on my Tiger.
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Looking good! I particularly like the M36.
I imagine the instructions for this kit are going to be quite complicated, given the number of variants included.
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Nice. Looking forward to getting a Wittman killer 8)
Now, did the Achilles crews have tanker uniforms or regular infantry uniforms?
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Very nice!
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Nice. Looking forward to getting a Wittman killer 8)
Now, did the Achilles crews have tanker uniforms or regular infantry uniforms?
Tanker uniforms. They often wore helmets, for obvious reasons - especially in Normandy where snipers were very prevalent. The crews in two of these photos (the first of which I posted earlier) are wearing berets, however. The commander in the third photo is wearing a helmet.
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Here is the preliminary decal sheet for the M10/M36:
Seems like many of the M10/M36 don't have any vehicle numbers on them. Just Allies Stars, division or platoon identifications, or a tank name here and there...
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Waterslide%20Decals/M10%20Decal%20Set%20151113-1_zpsjaum3wg5.jpg)
C&C welcome!
;)
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Serial numbers do seem to be relatively uncommon on US Army M10s and M36s. They were more common on the M36 than the M10, from what I can see. The serial number was normally positioned on the hull side near the front.
You probably don't need 4 of the tank destroyer battalion insignia (i.e. the black panther head) - 2 will do.
You've actually got two different (incomplete) sets of French unit markings there - the 'Cross of Lorraine' appeared vehicles of the Regiment blindes de Fusiliers Marins (all former French Navy personnel), while the 5th Armoured Division used the big white diamond on French colours. French vehicles had their own fancy serial number as well, painted in white on a black rectangle with the French flag on the left side. This appeared on the front and rear.
Nice to see you've included the British registration numbers (with the 's' prefix, signifying a self-propelled gun). The '51' in a red square wouldn't appear on a British M10 or Achilles - they were crewed by the Royal Artillery, which used a red over blue square (like the one with a '77' on it that you've provided, which is correct).
These vehicles were widely used by the anti-tank regiments of the British infantry divisions as well, so maybe include a few infantry division formation signs? For the infantry, the regimental sign was also a red over blue square, but with a '46' inside. The RA had very complicated additional markings, so maybe don't try and cover all of them.
If you need some space, you could ditch the stars with yellow circles (as they were only used for a short time) and the US armoured division patch (since, as previously discussed, this almost never appeared on vehicles)...
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Very nice :)