Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on May 22, 2015, 11:04:27 pm
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M8 Greyhound / M20 Armoured Utility Car
Once again, a US vehicle... a quick quote from Wikipedia...
The M8 light armored car, the "Greyhound", entered combat service with the Allies in 1943. It was purpose designed to serve as the primary basic command and communication combat vehicle of the US Cavalry Reconnaissance Troops. The M8 first saw action in Italy in 1943 and was used by the US Army both in Europe and in the Far East. In the latter theater, it was used mostly on Okinawa and the Philippines, and was occasionally employed in its original tank destroyer role as most of the Japanese armor was vulnerable to its 37 mm gun. Between March 1943 and June 1945, a total of 8,523 units were built.
The M20 armored utility car, also known as the M20 scout car, was a Greyhound with the turret replaced with a low, armored open-topped superstructure and an anti-aircraft ring mount for a .50-in M2 heavy machine gun. A bazooka was provided for the crew to compensate for its lack of anti-armor weaponry. The M20 was primarily used as a command vehicle and for forward reconnaissance, but many vehicles also served as armored personnel carriers and cargo carriers. It offered high speed and excellent mobility, along with a degree of protection against small arms fire and shrapnel. When employed in the command and control role, the M20 was fitted with additional radio equipment. A total of 3,680 M20s were built by Ford during its two years in production (1943–1944).
Objective of our 1/56 plastic kit will be as follow:
- a 2 sprue plastic kit to built either a M8 or M20 armoured car
- two MG arrangements for the M8 - rear mount or ring mount
- open front driver hatch
- external utility toolbox or land mine rack
- simplified interior
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-M20%20Line%20Drawing%20150522-2_zps8t2ntpqw.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-M20%20Line%20Drawing%20150522-1_zps6wzf2igy.jpg)
;)
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I will have your children.
Would the side skirts be removable? They were sometimes left off if damaged
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Would the side skirts be removable? They were sometimes left off if damaged
I would say "no" in order to minimize part counts to fit into 2 standard sprues, but should be easily converted if needed.
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Fantastic - an armoured car! I want both the M8 and the M20.
One small point about the .50 cal pintle mount - introduced in mid-1944, it was a folding mount, so the gun tended to sit quite high. Many early M8s had no .50 cal at all.
The side pannier replaced the mine rack on very late vehicles. It was a bit more flush with the side skirts than this drawing suggests. Late vehicles also tend to have another stowage box on the glacis.
If the kit could be designed so that the side skirts are easily cut off, that would be nice.
This is great news - please get it out before Italeri releases theirs!
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The diagram below (highlighted in blue) listed out the major differences between the M8 and M20. Most of these differences are minor and won't be noticeable without broad knowledge of the vehicle.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-M20%20Line%20Drawing%20150522-3_zpsftgetrp2.jpg)
Source: Squadron M8/M20 Armored Cars Walk Around (27030)
Because we have to limit the number of parts that can be fitted onto the two sprues, we will unavoidably ignore some of these differences. For those who are very particular to these omission can make conversion with ease.
;)
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Wheneouldyou expect release?
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The diagram below (highlighted in blue) listed out the major differences between the M8 and M20. Most of these differences are minor and won't be noticeable without broad knowledge of the vehicle.
I don't think you have any problem here. It looks as though most of the features you've identified (storage box replacing the mine rack, additional front storage box and first aid kit on the rear) were common to both the M20 and the M8 - they're just features of later production vehicles.
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More details on the M8/M20 interior... To save sprue space, we have a simplified interior (yet detailed), probably an one piece floor with seats and details, radio and storage compartment on the sides, a total of 3 part counts for the whole interior!
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8%20Interior%20FB%20150522-1_zpspfj2vmlu.jpg)
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With the current design, is it possible to use it as an M20 and M8? Or do the parts need gluing so that it can be used as an M20 or M8
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I think the interior is once area where you can get away with significant simplification. Trying to provide all the parts for both versions would be take up a lot of sprue space - the M8, for instance, had 37mm ammo stowage racks, but these won't be noticeable with the turret in place. It's probably more important to get the M20 details reasonably accurate, since they'll be visible.
As I mentioned before, the standard pintle mount on the M8 turret was not a normal pintle, but a folding one. I can provide some photos, but the important point is that the .50 cal sat quite high up when it was in the firing position, whereas in the folded position it almost rested on the edge of the turret.
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Pinky: We modelled the style of the MG mount based on the Squadron walk-around book and some online historical photo for clarification. We also need to simplify it for better contact with the ring mount and ease of assembly. You can attach some more reference photo for us to look at too!
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The first M8s in service didn't have a .50 cal. There had been a dispute about what its secondary armament should be, which delayed the design of a mounting. As the cavalry wanted a .50 cal, units stationed in the UK prior to D-Day fitted their own - thus the initial mountings were improvised. Many of these were M32 truck ring mounts, because this had been tested by the cavalry. In August 1944 the ring mount was formally approved, but it was never a production feature - it was essentially a field modification. Meanwhile, a folding pintle mount was finally approved and went into production in mid-1944, even though it was awkward and exposed the gunner to enemy fire. This feature was less commonly seen on WW2 vehicles, but was the norm for M8s serving in Korea (although the pintle was often retro-fitted).
This means there were 4 configurations on WW2 M8s:
- no .50 cal at all (hopefully your M8 turret can be built without one)
- improvised .50 cal mount (usually on the front of the turret)
- ring mount (yours looks fine)
- folding pintle (note that vehicles with the late features, like the stowage boxes replacing the mine racks, would normally have the folding pintle)
Here are some photos. One shows a typical improvised .50 cal mount. The other 3 show the pintle raised and lowered, and in close-up. All of these are from Zaloga's book on the M8. Hope that helps.
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This means there were 4 configurations on WW2 M8s:
- no .50 cal at all (hopefully your M8 turret can be built without one)
- improvised .50 cal mount (usually on the front of the turret)
- ring mount (yours looks fine)
- folding pintle (note that vehicles with the late features, like the stowage boxes replacing the mine racks, would normally have the folding pintle)
Think we have all these figured out, except for the folding pintle. Will need some type of line drawing or blueprint to draw it... will check!
Thanks!
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Found this on a website called usarmymodels.com (http://usarmymodels.com).
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Thanks, Pinky! As it turned out, we have something similar (simplified version) in our digital library. Here is the closeup drawing:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8%20Folding%20Pintle%20FB%20150526-1_zpsxnhfkrko.jpg)
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That's not really what it looks like (that is basically a standard .50 cal pintle - it doesn't have any folding pieces), but I've can't find anything clearer than what I've posted. You need to bear in mind that the .50 cal was intended as an AA weapon, and a mount like the one in your drawing would not allow the weapon any elevation.
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3D Prototype of our M8 Greyhound and M20 Armoured Utility Car. Need some minor adjustments, but overall design is satisfactory. We have added an open driver hatch which is not shown in the prototype. Expected release date is Q3/15.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-1_zpsrle8hkwe.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-2_zpsapgazj1g.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-3_zpsqqfxhglo.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-4_zpsd8rovnkv.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-7_zpseqosxdjo.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-6_zpsupx4vota.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20Prototype%20150530-5_zpsyyze7mio.jpg)
Enjoy!
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People moan that companies are making the same kits. I think the difference is, yours is going to be better than anyone else's. This looks really good.
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Based on a suggestion from Pinky, we have updated the rear MG mount to a folding pintle version, which we think is a better alternative than our previous design.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-Revised%20Pintle%20Mount-150602_zpsoatz8wbi.jpg)
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Just received from the factory, the MM8/M20 Test Shots #1! Initial inspection shows a few issues that need to be corrected, other than that, looks really good. Aiming for Q4/15 releases... Will test-fitting the parts, and if outcome is good, will paint them up for preview!
The two sprues will enable you to build either a M8 Greyhound or a M20 Armoured Utlity Car. Comes with open or closed driver hatch, with or without gun ring on the M8, and simplified interior. More images to follow... stay tuned!
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-M20%20Test%20Shot%20150806-1A_zps7mn1ixdl.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/M8-M20%20Test%20Shot%20150806-1B_zpsneg3qiqj.jpg)
Enjoy!
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Looks promising, the pictures are not that good though, lighting & focus make it hard to see the details.
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Looks promising, the pictures are not that good though, lighting & focus make it hard to see the details.
Here is a PIP image of the M8/M20 test shot plastic...
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB%20M8-M20%20PIP%2001_zpsgbqknlfx.jpg)
Will post some painted images soon!
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Looking great so far!
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Trying to take a little break from the busy weeks previously... finishing up the assembly instructions, decals, box art, and various supporting material.
Here is our painted TS1 plastic for the M8/M20 kit:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB01%20M8_zpsc5lrbfbt.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB02%20M8%20with%20Gun%20Ring_zpstx5umvyq.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB03%20M20_zpsd6rqdg6u.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB04%20M20%20with%20Gun%20Ring_zpsec3pa3zi.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB05%20M8-M20_zpszz8vqyo5.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB06%20M3A1-M8_zpsnplcoaag.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB07%20M3A1-M20_zpsnz6dq58r.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB08%20M8-M20%20Driver%20Hatch_zpsijvx1jsk.jpg)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/M8%20Greyhound/FB09%20M8-M20%20Interior_zpsspxaiqdd.jpg)
Enjoy!
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Both vehicles look excellent. I really like the interior on the M20.
Remember that the machine gun ring mount was standard on the M20 (i.e. it wasn't optional), but was a field improvisation on the M8 (although it was very common). Many M8s saw service without a .50 cal. The folding .50 cal pintle mount was a standard feature of late production M8s. It might be worth mentioning that in the instructions.
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Can't wait!!
So looking forward to seeing this on the table...
(http://pattonthirdarmy.com/m20/IMG_5995.jpeg)
Patton's M20
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Very good :)
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Here is the preliminary decal sheet for the M8/M20:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Waterslide%20Decals/FB%20M8%20Decal%20Set%20151111-1_zpso95s2q3m.jpg)
C&C Welcome!
;)
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Looks good :)
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As with your M10, the decals for the French version are for two different formations - the Regiment blinde de Fusiliers Marin used the Cross of Lorraine but not the white diamond on national colours. The circle around the white patch on the Cross of Lorraine should be blue. Either way, French vehicles had their own fancy serial number preceded by the national flag.
It looks as though the M8/M20's bridging marking was "7", "8" or "9".
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I noticed a shock when I looked at the photos of the two units tonight, I saw that for some reason the axe shovel have been replaced from the original drawings. The axe holder if welded to a vehicle would be in a fixed location be it jeep or M8 or M20. Pattons photo is a great reference for these. Hope it can be fixed? Iv`e been scanning you tube footage and found that the M8 axe and shovel fall as on the model, the M20 as of the drawings .61 years old and only just spotted the difference, perhaps there`s hope for this old dog yet.
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We have taken some time off to review the Italeri M8/M20 plastic kit. There is always something we can learn from our brethren manufacturers.
It is hard not to be bias as a studio designer, but this is probably because our design philosophy is different from the start. While Italeri’s background is from making military models, we are more miniature gaming oriented. Italeri used their expertise to downsize their 1/35 M8 and M20 military model kits into their 1/56 M8/M20 combo kit, we build ours from scratch with the gamer in mind based on up-to-date reference material.
With more books and photos available in the media, we are surprised Italeri did not double check for historical accuracy as the M8 and M20 had some subtle design differences. Here is our finding:
- Good overall design and parts layout
- Too many unnecessary small parts for the average gamer
- Tyre tread pattern is definitely wrong – should be arranged alternatively instead of parallel on both sizes of each tyre
- The M8 gun ring height is too low
- The M8 turret shape is wrong
- The M8 mantlet shape is wrong
- The undercarriage suspension design (while good for modelling) is bad for gaming – with six wheels on the table, the vehicle can be wobbly
- Significant amount of mould lines on the sprue
- No side storage bins, only mine rack or jerry can rack
- Wrong radio position inside the hull cabin
- No rivets on the fender armour
This is not an attack on Italeri, we are just reviewing the kit from a gamer and modeler point of view.
Italeri's plastic kits had always been an inspiration to us to do a better job!
If anyone think this is not appropriate, we can take this down anytime.
;)
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Hey, it's your forum - you can say what you like!
Is it a downsized 1/35 scale kit, or an upsized 1/72 scale kit? I thought the latter. It definitely looks wrong in the photos of the finished model.
To add a bit of balance, it's worth noting that the other recent Italeri 1/56 kits, like the StuG III and Panzer III, have been very good. And there are accuracy issues with some Rubicon kits too (quite a lot, in the case of the Panzer III - admittedly an early effort). I guess it's harder to understand with a company like Italeri which has so much experience. But they've always been a bit hit-and-miss.
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It's downsized, which would explain the little bits that could of been done with larger bits or not used at all. The puma suffered from the same issue.
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Yes, I didn't really like the Puma kit. There seemed to be more parts for the suspension than the rest of the kit put together. Then, bizarrely, they provided hollowed-out wheels, which completely undermines the rationale for providing a detailed suspension. It's not really a wargaming model.
Going back to Rubicon's original post:
While Italeri’s background is from making military models, we are more miniature gaming oriented. Italeri used their expertise to downsize their 1/35 M8 and M20 military model kits into their 1/56 M8/M20 combo kit, we build ours from scratch with the gamer in mind based on up-to-date reference material.
Italeri actually have a lot of experience with 'pure' wargaming models, as they have a range of them in 1/72 scale. They are mostly quite good in terms of a compromise between accuracy, ease of assembly and robustness. It seems odd that their approach to 1/56 scale wargaming kits has been so inconsistent. Their StuG III and Panzer III are examples of them getting it right (their Panther A and Tiger I are pretty good too). Maybe they rushed the M8/M20 to compete with Rubicon's?
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Italeri had the M8/M20 in their preview for 2015 releases in Nürenberg already. Even before Rubicon announced theirs.
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Italeri had the M8/M20 in their preview for 2015 releases in Nürenberg already. Even before Rubicon announced theirs.
We don't "announce" our releases until the project had actually started. Our average turnaround project completion lead time is 4 months.
BTW, Italeri had announced more than a single M8/M20 kit. Unfortunately, only one was released.
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Italeri had the M8/M20 in their preview for 2015 releases in Nürenberg already. Even before Rubicon announced theirs.
My recollection is that Rubicon had said that they would be doing an M8/M20 and an M10/M36 before Italeri's preview catalogue appeared. Italeri/Warlord's releases have tracked Rubicon's fairly closely. That may be partly coincidence (subjects like the StuG III and Panzer III are staples of any range of WW2 AFVs), but only partly. I think it's telling that Italeri have yet to release the M10/M30 kit that they previewed in early 2015 - and Rubicon's M8/M20 would have been released earlier than Italeri/Warlord's if not for problems with the packaging.
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Is this the same beast that sells under the Warlord boxes ? .Istill
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Is this the same beast that sells under the Warlord boxes ?
Yes, the M8/M20 that Warlord are selling is an Italeri kit.
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Thank you. I`m going Rubicon all the way this American group of vehicles makes an old heart warm. Cheers Pinky.
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Thank you. I`m going Rubicon all the way this American group of vehicles makes an old heart warm. Cheers Pinky.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/GMC%20Truck/GMC-TS1-Painted-160216-00_zpspwldjvkt.jpg)[/URL]
...plus the Willy jeep later this year!!
;)