Author Topic: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117  (Read 11828 times)

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,381
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #225 on: November 23, 2017, 10:24:40 PM »
The cupola rotated, at least on late production versions.  That may explain the different hatch position.[edit: incorrect - see below]
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 12:16:36 AM by Pinky »

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #226 on: November 23, 2017, 10:32:46 PM »
 I thought the Germans had problems making ball bearings , even replacing them with wooden balls bearings . Many of the Stugs which are supposed to have the commader's hatch rotate ( for the  scissors periscope ) were bolted in one position , forward .  And just why would the IV need the hatch cover to  rotate , no scissors periscope to give the commander a 360 " view . Nothing like adding more parts and complicated  assembly as your country goes down in flames  , those crazy Germans  ::)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:34:39 PM by ripley »

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,381
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #227 on: November 24, 2017, 12:13:09 AM »
Sorry, I read a bad translation.  The late version hatch lid pivoted (like the Panther cupola hatch), rather than being hinged.  Hence the different attachment.

According to Doyle and Jentz's Osprey book on the Ausf G, H and J:

- the vision ports were eliminated from May 1944 onwards, but not from all vehicles;
- the Flammentoter (the 2 exhaust mufflers) replaced the single cylindrical muffler in August 1944;
- the mesh sideskirts were introduced from September 1944, when Zimmerit was discontinued;
- the hull sides were extended in October 1944, so that the towing points were integral;
- the return rollers were reduced to 3 on each side in December 1944.

So Rubicon's Ausf J is (or should be) a very late model.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 12:17:43 AM by Pinky »

tyroflyer

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #228 on: November 24, 2017, 07:47:40 AM »
Very interesting. I suspect Rubicon are planning on 4 return rollers. In which case we are looking at a late 1944 tank rather than 1945. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Hopefully when the final product is produced and incorporates advice from Pinky, among others, it will get great reviews.

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Ausf J completed 171121
« Reply #229 on: November 24, 2017, 08:56:05 AM »
 Some other Pzr IV based vehicles had the 3 return rollers  ( Jagdpanzer IV /70 V and  I think late Stug IV & Brumbar ) , maybe Rubicon could add an extra hull tub to their kit , like they add the extra upper hull to the Sherman . To get a late /late version  ( of everything ) would be ok in my book . Again weather or not its going to be profitable to produce said kits is another story , and if not I understand completely , I'll just have to kit bash my own ... like I have time to k bash everything I want :D

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,805
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #230 on: November 24, 2017, 11:56:59 AM »
Getting away from the Ausf J debates for a while until our design staff had the references sorted out!
Stowage that we had planned for the Panzer IV...









Enjoy!
;)

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #231 on: November 24, 2017, 01:06:41 PM »
Well that's a good start . Not a good idea to have the camo nets draped over the turret doors , crews didn't put anything over their escape hatches . Try bailing out of a tank on fire and getting all tangled in net , not good . Some tanks with the turret skirting added wire mesh to the space behind the turret doors , making it like the baskets seen on 1970s Brit and US tanks . And while the canteen and mess kit would work  I don't think I've ever seen tank troops with the so called bread bags hanging on their tanks  , that's more an Infantry piece of equipment . And IRC internal stowage diagrams show specific bins/ compartments  that  food and water was stored in . 

I know its a model but you get the idea  :)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 01:11:10 PM by ripley »

ultravanillasmurf

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,183
    • View Profile
    • Blog:
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #232 on: November 24, 2017, 04:30:27 PM »
A good idea.

Ripley makes some good points.

Water bottles seemed popular in groups.

I will dig out the photograph reference in the Osprey book

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,381
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #233 on: November 24, 2017, 11:02:41 PM »
Are these resin?  Or just prototypes?

I agree with Ripley's comments.  The turret stowage looks weird - what are these items attached to?  The folds on the blanket rolls don't look natural either.  I think I've seen the bread bags on Afrika Korps Panzers though.

It looks as though some of these items were based on this:


« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 04:51:47 PM by Pinky »

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #234 on: November 29, 2017, 12:49:51 PM »
Lets think about stuff stowed on tanks - you don't want to stop the turret from turning or the gun from elevating / depressing  so no stuff blocking it or the bow mg . Now the German heading into Russia during the early part of the war had all sorts of stuff covering the engine deck inhibiting the turret  ( fuel cans , ammo , etc ) , but that was because they had no opposition and were outrunning their supply train ,  the Allies did the same pushing through Germany in 45 .  If you are in contact , all that extra stuff gets dumped !  You don't cover the vision ports , you got to see whats going on around you , again , heading into Russian , lots of wooden boxes , crates on the fenders blocking the vision slits , but these are ( mostly )  gone when in combat . You also don't block your escape hatches , the crew has to get out in an emergency . A new tank you can get  but a well trained crew to use that tank  is priceless . And last , you don't cover the air intake / out lets on your engine deck , tanks run hot , engines have to cool , IRC the panzer IV sucked air in through the engine deck and expelled it through the side vents over the fenders  , don't block them with a lot of kit . That being said , tankers carried a lot of extra gear , best to check wartime pictures for placement , and not pictures of knocked out vehicles as kit has been disturbed by the explosion , by the crew exiting in a hurry or by folks looking for souveniers or plunder . Rubicon has some nice pieces of kit planned  ( the tarps I don't like , sorry ), I would just use them in more logical ( to me ) places .
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 08:59:00 PM by ripley »

tyroflyer

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #235 on: November 29, 2017, 02:32:19 PM »
I imagine the tanks could be heavily camouflaged without concern for the hatches/intakes being covered when the main concern was attack from the air and the vehicle's crew not in it. However this doesn't seem the likely situation on the gaming table.

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Stowage! 171124
« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2017, 09:05:20 PM »
Heavy camouflage ,like a Tiger in the haystack ?  In ambush , tanks might be totally covered , but once they fired a couple of rounds they usually moved loosing most of the camo.  If they're parked , they might be totally covered in branches and netting  to hide from aircraft , but again most of those are gone when they are in motion . Just look at  pictures of German tanks in Normandy , they look like mobile shubbery ,but you can still make out its a vehicle



« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 09:09:22 PM by ripley »

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,805
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
« Reply #237 on: January 17, 2018, 02:43:49 PM »
Not much update since late November last year...

With the Panzer IV Digital Library basically completed, we are now readying the files for mould making. At the same time, we are already making expansion sets... A Wirbelwind turret that will replace the original Panzer IV one on a late production model...











Enjoy!
;)

ultravanillasmurf

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,183
    • View Profile
    • Blog:
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
« Reply #238 on: January 17, 2018, 05:19:15 PM »
I hope the turret armour and the quad can be painted separately and then assembled later, even with the top section removed it would be difficult to paint the quad.

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,805
    • View Profile
Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wirbelwind turret 180117
« Reply #239 on: January 17, 2018, 06:21:56 PM »
I hope the turret armour and the quad can be painted separately and then assembled later, even with the top section removed it would be difficult to paint the quad.

The Flakvierling is a single piece (after assembly) and can be painted separately before glueing it down to the turret (together with the gun crew if you wanted).  The upper turret piece should be a snap fit to the bottom piece with ease after painting the interior.  Then you can cover the interior with masking material (towel, masking tape, sponge etc) for the outer surface paint job!  ;)