Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on November 26, 2014, 05:27:00 pm
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While we are still working some active projects, we are now researching material for new projects. One proposed project is the Tiger II.
Some Background:
The Tiger II was developed late in the war and built in relatively small numbers. Orders were placed for 1,500 Tiger IIs — slightly more than the 1,347 Tiger I tanks produced — but Tiger II production was severely disrupted by Allied bombing. Among others, five raids between 22 September and 7 October 1944 destroyed 95 percent of the floor area of the Henschel plant. It is estimated that this caused the loss in production of some 657 Tiger IIs. Only 492 units were produced: one in 1943, 379 in 1944, and 112 in 1945. Full production ran from mid-1944 to the end of the war.
Zimmerit:
Zimmerit was applied to some tanks produced from December 1943 to 9 September 1944. Application of Zimmerit was usually done at the factory. In general, vehicles already in service were not coated with Zimmerit. Zimmerit was discontinued from factory application on 9 September 1944 and from field application on 7 October 1944. This was due to concerns that projectile impacts could ignite it. These proved false, but the order was never rescinded. Applying and drying the paste added days to the production of each vehicle, which was unacceptable as there was a shortage of tanks. Only early models of Tiger II have Zimmerit applied.
Proposed Plan:
Our proposed plan is to include both the "Porsche" and the Henschel (production) Tiger II turret. The question is should we include Zimmerit? Historically, out of the 492 Tiger IIs, less than half had Zimmerit applied. Our concerns with Zimmerit is:
1) Increase design and production difficulties
2) Mould production cost significantly higher
3) Zimmerit pattern on model not convincing
4) Retail price of the final product too high
What is your opinion?
We have added a poll for those who don't want to comment, but want to contribute. For those who wanted to comment, please give feedback and vote too!!
NOTE: You probably need to <SCROLL UP> to see the poll...
;)
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Since my main area of interest is Normandy, I would like a zimmerited porsche design. However, I voted "No" since a Tiger II isn't really essential for me.
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For a plastic kit, I would vote no for zimmerit
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No to Zimmerit, I would rather if possible be able to buy it in an add-on pack. But I am not interested it being on the kit.
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I think a Tiger II kit would be better served without Zimmerit as it never looks as good in plastic as spending a couple of hours with putty and a saw to detail. Also it's a lot easier to add Zimmerit than it is to remove it!
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I think a Tiger II kit would be better served without Zimmerit as it never looks as good in plastic as spending a couple of hours with putty and a saw to detail. Also it's a lot easier to add Zimmerit than it is to remove it!
100% agree
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I think a Tiger II kit would be better served without Zimmerit as it never looks as good in plastic as spending a couple of hours with putty and a saw to detail. Also it's a lot easier to add Zimmerit than it is to remove it!
100% agree
Another vote for the Tiger II without Zimmerit by the same reasons above! ;)
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I'll also vote for a zim - less Tiger II . Depending on which actual tank I decide to model , if needed I will add my own zim.
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Another no here, plus some other manufacturers do resin zimmerit Tiger IIs but I haven't seen ones without.
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I think a Tiger II kit would be better served without Zimmerit as it never looks as good in plastic as spending a couple of hours with putty and a saw to detail. Also it's a lot easier to add Zimmerit than it is to remove it!
100% agree
Another vote for the Tiger II without Zimmerit by the same reasons above! ;)
Same for me :)
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I think all the Porsche turret Tiger IIs had Zimmerit, so if you're going to supply both turrets it'd make sense to include Zimmerit. Personally, I hate trying to add it myself. I'd also suggest that there are a lot of more useful vehicles that should have priority over a Tiger II.
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I think all the Porsche turret Tiger IIs had Zimmerit, so if you're going to supply both turrets it'd make sense to include Zimmerit. Personally, I hate trying to add it myself. I'd also suggest that there are a lot of more useful vehicles that should have priority over a Tiger II.
We are just doing a general survey on various things that we want to do for Q3/2015. The Zimmerit issue is something that we are very interested to know... There will be more surveys to follow!
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Would agree that sans-zimmerit's the way to go, covering the greatest number of vehicles produced - however, as has been stated, the 'Porshe' turreted examples (the first fifty or so production models) pretty much all would have been coated, so a historical approach does somewhat back you into a corner. The only approach which would cover all options (whilst avoiding huge expense) would be to produce a zimmerit as a photo-etch set - possibly in co-operation with one of the companies that already make such add-ons for the scale model crowd (I'm sure you could sell them on such a project - after all, gamers tend to buy multiples & as such would represent a largely untapped market for them) .
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Ballardian: This is why we are doing this survey, trying to get a general idea on what our customers wanted. This also give us a chance to explore different options in terms of production and design. These feedback are valuable to us!
;)
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No Zimmerit, please. You can add it later if you really need to....
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I guess you could make 2 Tiger II kits . The Porsche turret version with 2 turrets , one with , one without zimm . Then the hull could be made so the glasis plate and sides are separate pieces ( sort of like the side panels of your Panzer IV ),with or without zimm . The same for the Henschel turret version . This would give you 2 basic sprues , body and wheels / track for the kit , and then add the Porsche or Henshcel turret sprue as needed . I seem to recall , Dragon does the same kind of thing in 1/35 for the glasis plates of their Panthers , it gives them a basic body with the front plate added depending on the vehicle type .
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Ripley: We are exploring different possibilities. The Tiger II is still not a confirm project, but rather a general survey on what customers wanted. We wanted to use this information as a basis for our design work. From our current project list, we don't see we can even start working on a Tiger II until Q3/2015. Would be very interested to see someone's plastic Tiger I with Zimmerit... probably Q2/2015?
We will be putting up another survey soon! All these for our Q3/2015 production schedule... thanks for everyone's comments and support!
;)
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In an ideal world I'd like to see the Porsche production with zimmerit and a separate kit (Henschel) without. :)
Most details could be shared between the two of course.
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In an ideal world I'd like to see the Porsche production with zimmerit and a separate kit (Henschel) without. :)
Most details could be shared between the two of course.
We have to agree... but game-wise, don't think a lot of players will field that many Tiger IIs.
Our initial thought is just ONE Tiger II kit with two turrets, which is already a 4 sprue kit.
If we are to produce TWO kits - one Porsche turret with Zimmerit, and one production turret without Zimmerit; plus the hull with and without Zimmerit - the mould cost will be tremendous and not worthwhile to consider; even with one or two shared sprues!
This survey is to give us some ideas on what to expect from customers. There is enough feedback on this issue for us to plan our production for next year!
;)
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Hi.
The Tiger II is one of my favourite tanks, so I don't care as long as you make it.
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I voted for With, however in all honesty, I'd not care if it came with crew. Just a commander, maybe another, not looking for a full 3D internal tank with crew :D
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Any chance of doing both types of turret in a kit of this beast, please?
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No zimmerit. Using putty and some modeling tools will lead to a much better looking zimmerit and the result looks much less uniform.
I understand that a large model is a risk, but tiger i & ii are similar, how the tiger ii more risky than a tiger i, do the tiger i sell better?
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You could make it without zimmerit and include a "tool" similar to the link below. That would enable people to apply their own and take up a small amount of space on the sprue. Or you could make your own small sprue with it, that way even your tiger I kit could have proper zimmerit!
http://www.hobby.net.ua/images/099161.jpg
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You could make it without zimmerit and include a "tool" similar to the link below. That would enable people to apply their own and take up a small amount of space on the sprue. Or you could make your own small sprue with it, that way even your tiger I kit could have proper zimmerit!
Thanks han5gruber! We will look into this and see how it will work out... to the right scale, of course!
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I worked with similar tools before, the results can be excellent, with enough practice at least.
But with details like tools and tow cables molded on the hull you are limited in the use of those tools and the result is less good.
MY (!) opinion is:
Most people wouldn t bother using the tools (as in to much work), for alot others the result will be unsatisfactory (lacking practice). Those who achieve good will be a fraction of the buyers and those will either buy other tools ore use more creative methods (as seen in the modeling section).
Its not really worth it...
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I'm not convinced there is a need for Tiger 2, and voted accordingly. I don't think it is anywhere near as well known as Tiger 1, T-34 or Sherman.
However, if you are set on including both turrets with a Tiger 2, what about an optional approach. Would it be possible to make the hull side and upper glacis plates separate components and double sided, with all the relevant details moulded onto them on each side, except that one side has zimmerit and the other doesn't. Make one turret with and one without (I think the flat fronted turret, I keep forgetting which manufacturer that is, had zimmerit more than the rounded one. Though I could be wrong, don't have my references to hand) and people can choose whether they want to build with Zim or without.
Double siding the parts would of course take up no extra space on the sprue compared with separating the parts anyway.
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I think timing is a factor as well, with warlord / italeri releasing kitsplastic kits, especially with the large kits, the kits will sell better if there is "no" alternative product. If the is one i can imagine alot people wont ghuy another one of the same type.
Not like lighter vehicles where wargamerw might buy more than one...
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I agree, that Tiger II is not the most needed German AFV at the moment. Sure it's a beautiful tank, but it doesn't really see much action on tabletops. In my opinion Jagdpanzer IVs or Marder IIIs would be far better idea, and they would sell better (sure they're a bit less iconic than Tiger II, but they see much more action in wargames), so I voted that there is no need for a Tiger II as for now.
But if I had to choose which variant of Tiger II to produce, I'd go with the zimmerit-lacking variant. Factory-made zimmerit doesn't look satisfactory for a modeller, and gamers don't really give a damn about having it or not :P . So the Henschel Tiger II would be great straight out of the box (as they rarely had zimmerit), while the Porsche variant would require a little bit of work from a modeller's perspective, but still be usable for both modeller and gamer. Also please don't forget that those Tigers not only had different turrets, but also wheels!
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one of the main reasons that i haven't bought the warlord panther or tiger I is that the Zimmerit looks horrid.