Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on April 03, 2020, 03:09:54 pm
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For the first 3 months of 2020, all new projects are British machinery.
For April, we are announcing an early war German light tank, the Panzer II...
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/9d/a4/Cr2kbnIQ_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3e/3d/gFARN6hw_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/46/4c/pLWGP05g_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/bc/48/YG1cmaXJ_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b3/df/B57EipBx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d1/cb/dZ8Bkd9w_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f6/27/EjNleW0X_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/af/a8/AxEksl1q_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0a/3c/QcPg3kEr_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/06/73/lcFlqW4X_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b1/cd/tKLJO6H1_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ca/d4/jAJ2H0hN_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/79/3c/iA8289mn_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/60/84/ezJ41AZI_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c2/f1/PtAgcyQB_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0f/76/p8vmMLUy_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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great to see. any plans for later Ausf
I have plans for a 12th SS vehicle - they apparently had 7 they used as Recce for the Panzer Regiments - one found burned out at Carpiquet airport - but likely a later model than a C
however this is perfect for a forthcoming early war project i have in mind.
As ever great to see you eating away at the Resin only market.
trust you guys are all Ok were not hearing much about HK at the moment.
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As ever great to see you eating away at the Resin only market.
great to see. any plans for later Ausf
Don't say that... we just want better quality and choice of product for the community! ;)
...and yes, there are some later Ausf coming.
trust you guys are all Ok were not hearing much about HK at the moment.
HK was under control for a short while but now is getting worst from visitors aboard coming into HK.
The government is taking measure to contain the spreading with minimal effects...
Hope the situation will improve. :(
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Super news! An early war plastic tank! Delighted to see this is coming!
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>:( A great addition for the early war stuff and some great images but......
You can see both sides of the track, on the face side you can see the guide teeth but are they are absent on the other. The sherman tracks are the same.
Could it be possible to add a strip of teeth on the sprue or make a small jig so we can make our own. It would help if you mould them on the reverse side of the rear idler and drive sprocket as a starting point. I will still get a few of them.....
Is it me or have I just seen the future.....A Wespe and a MarderII on th design board :D
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Nice.
The mudguards look like they are made of chicken wire, is that intentional?
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Probably just the CAD render making it look a little off
(https://i.postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0/Pz-Kpfw-II-ausf-Bor-C-wwp-arrows-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0)
I've found most small scale model kits tend to have non skid trend a little larger then true scale to stand out
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YES!
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/9d/a4/Cr2kbnIQ_t.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8823/16548085294_45dbf0df9e.jpg)
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Probably just the CAD render making it look a little off
(https://i.postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0/Pz-Kpfw-II-ausf-Bor-C-wwp-arrows-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0)
I've found most small scale model kits tend to have non skid trend a little larger then true scale to stand out
Good find, my limited books had nothing showing non skid mudguards.
It is a bit depressing putting fine detail on a kit which is then masked by a layer of paint ^__^.
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The mudguards look like they are made of chicken wire, is that intentional?
Probably just the CAD render making it look a little off
(https://i.postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0/Pz-Kpfw-II-ausf-Bor-C-wwp-arrows-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7C3gqjP0)
I've found most small scale model kits tend to have non skid trend a little larger then true scale to stand out
To help speed things up - finding mistakes early before model making takes place - we should try to point out to RM any possible issues.
Let us not have a repeat of the Panzer III story. ;)
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The pictures look pretty good . I noticed the vision ports on the pictures have different patterns of bolts , so Rubicon is depicting the changes in Panzer II development of the A , B, & C versions ( most upgrades were add on or thicker amour plates and the corresponding changes to the vision ports made to fit the new plates ) , and then the commander's hatch from square to round with periscopes . I'm almost disappointed they didn't add the large stowage box to the left rear fender , like some 1/35 scale kits have . For those of you who don't know , Tamiya released their Panzer II back in the 70s basing it on a tank in , IRC Bovington , the problem being it was not stock , the British troops who captured it added a side stowage box from another Pzr II to the rear fender , so for years , most of us thought late Panzer IIs had 2 stowage boxes , much like every Cromwell kit ever made , including the new 1.35 Airfix Cromwell ( yes brand new Airfix 1/35 molds !!! ) has the Cullin hedge row cutter of which only one ( 1 ) Cromwell ever had fitted , and it never left England .
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There are several books published about the Panzer II, but I think some of the better books well worth a look at would have to be the three books in the Panzer Tracts series. There are three in the series for the Panzer II:
Panzer Tracts No. 2-1 - Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf.a/1 to C development and production from 1934 to 1940
Panzer Tracts No. 2-2 - Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf.G, H, J, L, and M development and production from 1938 to 1943
Panzer Tracts No. 2-3 - Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf.D, E, und F
(https://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/pzt/pzt21.jpg)
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I believe only the Ausf A had the split top hatch, and that Ausf B and Ausf C had the cupola.
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Seems like a lot of discussion about the missing turret rear storage bin and copula changes.
We had spent a lot of time researching the differences on these features.
Anyway, here is our Ausf F update...
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d2/7a/VhztTB8v_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/75/b3/OpllE43O_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/28/a8/RSrOVSdO_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d8/70/Joe5XBPl_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/24/5c/jqIpHyft_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d0/d1/BpyvQ4vZ_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/14/35/GsmeXdvx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/16/3c/8XtW5jFK_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a5/52/3x55fPoh_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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NO! , Please No . The large rear storage bin on the fender was added by British troops after capturing the tank in North Africa . The tank ended up at the Museum in Bovington and was photographed by the Tamiya research team and released as a kit in the 70s . The German versions of the Panzer II only had the side bin . The turret box was a local built item and only added to about 7 tanks of one company serving in North Africa
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The large rear storage bin on the fender was added by British troops after capturing the tank in North Africa. The tank ended up at the Museum in Bovington and was photographed by the Tamiya research team and released as a kit in the 70s. The German versions of the Panzer II only had the side bin. The turret box was a local built item and only added to about 7 tanks of one company serving in North Africa.
Can you please "mark out" which bins so that we can look into the matter? Thanks!!
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The bin on the left rear fender ( marked in blue ) is a add on from another Panzer II . It is actually a right side fender bin ( red ) , which had been put on backwards ( front of bin facing rear ). Notice also the space ( green ) for fender support . The left bin has the space as well but no support underneath it . This is , except for the 70s Tamiya model kits and various toys that aped it , a one of a kind vehicle . Notice on these pictures of the Bovington vehicle how the bin doesn't fit flush on the fender . As I said in my other post , this tank was captured and sent to Bovington where it was photographed by the Tamiya crew , who thinking it was accurate ,designed a model of it . There are lots of Tamiya slip ups in the 70s but that's a story for another day . Suffice to say the bin was added from another wrecked / damaged Panzer II ( by the Germans or maybe the British after capture ? ) , Panzer II only had 1 large fender bin when it left the factory
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WJ7Z5zh/800px-Sd-Kfz-121-Panzerkampfwagen-II-Ausf-F-Panzer-II-241168110-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WJ7Z5zh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K1b0nFsr/i-zf-Zq23d-XL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K1b0nFsr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2VrWG6r6/i-db-V99h-H-XL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2VrWG6r6)
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Fenders:
Speaking of fenders, how common were the fenders depicted in the CAD drawings used on Panzer IIs? I ask because looking at actual combat footage and pictures of Panzer IIS, it looks like that some had these types of fender, but also it looks like there is a more standard type of fender, which also seems more common in photos and footage. Anyway, just something I noticed.
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Could you post a picture of the type your talking about ? I'll waffle on anyway , lol . Standard as in smooth , no anti skid ? I would think , just for safety alone , all flat fenders should have non skid . Climb on a wet sheet of metal in hob nail boots , recipe for disaster . I've seen some flat front and rear curve pieces of the fender , probably early models before they had any feed back from the field ( Pzr I - IV ) . The office wienies always design stuff they think the troops would want , but its the troops that have to use it and devise there own way of doing things . IE : early Pzr IV had a fold down step on mid left side of tank for the crew to mount . By the F & G it was gone , why ? Because the crews found easier ways to get on / off the vehicle than all climbing up on one little step .
Also , a close up view of the Bovington Pzr II fender shows that it is 18 anti skid diamonds wide , the CAD is 8 diamonds wide . I would think making the anti skid to scale would end up giving us a smooth fender , certain things don't scale down very well .
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Could you post a picture of the type your talking about?
It is a bit difficult to cut and paste from my books, but here is a good example from Voyager Models. Even better because with very visible PE parts, you can better see what I am talking about. These fenders are very much like the ones shown in my books. Obviously there were several different types of fenders, but which ones would be the most common?
(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/1/8/6/211186-13323-81-pristine.jpg)
(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/8/1/8/215818-12290-98-pristine.jpg)
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Both the Bovington Pzr II F and this one from Russia have flat fender panels in the same place ,, right rear . The Bov one has as issued stowage boxes situated there, I'm guessing since that length had stuff attached to it , you couldn't stand on it , no need to go to the extra work / expense of non skid . The Russian one has a flat fender too , but its missing a lot of its on vehicle gear . Early Pzr II versions , A , B , C would have non skid as they didn't have large boxes there
(https://i.postimg.cc/VSHPj9hc/i-fk-K7k-Mt-XL-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSHPj9hc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDvFhdkz/i-HH35-TM9-XL-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDvFhdkz)
Pzr II C - picture from Prime Portal , non skid on right rear fender
(https://i.postimg.cc/1nsJMBWj/panzer-ii-ausf-c-1-of-8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1nsJMBWj)
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The problem of looking at existing WW2 tanks is that sometimes we do not know how accurate they are. For example, it is widely known now that the Bovington Panzer II has errors, and this was passed onto early model kits. However, using primary sources (actual WW2 photos and footage) has its issues as well because crews tended to make modifications. However, there is no need to worry about incorrect added parts (like fenders) because the original was rusted out or missing.
My main reason for bringing this topic to the forum was to ask how common was it for Panzer IIs to have full anti-slip (non-skid) fenders as shown on Rubicon Models' CAD drawings? I asked because most Panzer IIs I have seen in WW2 pictures and combat footage do not show full anti-slip (non-skid) fenders.
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The pictures I have found in the books I have and pictures found on the net , ( that is the few that are taken from an angle where the top of the fender is visible) , show, to me , that the early versions had full non skid and the later ones with the revised stowage ( fender boxes ) had sections of plain fenders . And as the Germans tended to implement new equipment / parts into the assembly line before old parts were used up , we can assume there will be a variety of differences . Anyone out there got the Panzer Tracks or Nuts & Bolts books on the Pzr II to give us the definitive answer ? While I like the Pzr II , it's not a vehicle I'm going to build more than a couple of , so It's the cheaper Squadron or Osprey books for me . For what it's worth , Dragon has released their early 1/35 Pzr II model with full non skid and their later II F kit with sections of smooth fenders , and as I've heard /seen no negative comments about it on various scale model sites , I'll assume the kits are correct . The only thing I can see wrong with Rubicon's fenders ( aside from the left fender rear box on the F ) is that it should be no tread under the right rear fender boxes on the F , the B/C vehicle fenders look right .
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I ordered the Panzer Tracts 2-1 on the early Px IIs, and will report back what that has to tell us (when it arrives). Of course, if anyone else has it, they can report in now and save me the trouble.
I strongly suspect (as ripley stated) that early versions had full non-slip, and that later versions had only partial. The thing is, I would bet that the Ausf covered by this kit (the A, B and C) probably all had full non-slip ... because the bulk of them were built prior to full-on war, and the need to conserve materials. I would guess that after seeing combat in Poland, and after full war was declared, they may have at that time decided to save on materials. But I doubt that any of the A, B and C models that rolled off assembly lines, had only partial.
That is just me, guessing.
As I said, when I get the book, I will research what is there, and check out any photos or text on the matter, and report back.
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As long as they get rid of that extra box on the left rear fender , I'm OK with the F as shown . What little non skid is on the right rear fender could possibly be removed, sanded off or made smooth with Green Stuff . Or just left alone , except for a couple of hobby buddies most folks I know couldn't even tell you it was a German tank never mind what's wrong or missing
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Photosniper 3D 0025
Panzer II & Luchs by Samir Karmieh and Lukasz Gladysiak
Page 5 top image: "Pz.Kpfw. II Aus C... The rounded front hull part was typical of this version. It was finally changed in the Aus. D and later models. [Kagero Archive]"
Would there be rounded front hulls for the Aus. A - Aus. C?
The Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. D (Schnellpanzer) has a different engine deck, will this build be possible? The Aus. E?
Page 6 bottom image shows a captured Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. F with a "Rommel chest" and no stowage box on the left rear fender.
So does the photo on page 19 show another North Afrika Pz.Kpfw. II Aus. F without a left side stowage box.
Would a second stowage box be an option with the left rear fender designed with the jack in place?
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The round nose was standard on the pre production a , b models ( small road wheels ) , the c model had the standard 5 larger road wheels , then came the A , B , & C versions , each letter designates changes in thickness of armor and the corresponding thicker vision ports , the squared off nose was added 20mm plates to the round nose , 70% of the c, A,B,C production of 1100 tanks got this ,. The D/E tank was a different design with 4 larger road wheels ( only about 50 made ) , production switched over to the Flamingo flame thrower tank and then redesigned again into the Marder II ( SdKfz 131 / 132 versions ) {Encyclopedia of German Tanks -Chamberlin, Doyle }
The turret box was unit built in North Africa , it was not a production item and wasn't seen anywhere else .
(https://i.postimg.cc/SjYpWhnW/Captured-Panzer-II-at-El-Alamein-1942-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SjYpWhnW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGfRF1gy/i-4-Snxf-Wk-XL-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGfRF1gy)
The box on the left rear fender was a taken from the another tank . Aside from drawings based on the Tamiya kit and pictures of the Bovington Pzr II when it was captured , I've seen no other pictures of a tank with this feature . Note the space under the box in the top picture , this was to clear a fender support . The is no support in the area of the space in the second picture because the box wasn't designed to go there .
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Some updates:
We have looked into additional references on the Panzer II, including Panzer Tracts and several other Russian publications. We are quite sure anti-skid patterns on the fenders are "standard" factory feature.
Also, you are correct on the incorrect rear left fender stowage box. The box is an extra add-on, so this is not a big issue. We probably will still include it in the kit with an extra footnote about its origin. The rear fender should have a jack instead. We might add some extra stowage (for example, fuel can rack) if sprue space allows.
As for the rear turret stowage box, it is also a separate piece. Hence not a big issue about historical accuracy.
Comments?
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If the Bovington box and the turret bin are optional that is great.
Are you going to be able to add the jack
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That's great .
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Prototypes of the Panzer II are done! Quite satisfied with the results, now onto some minor updates and sprue layout after QC approval!
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/1b/55/j4HOLg1v_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/04/f4/oHt0ynBB_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/2c/61/Vq1yDsPu_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f3/61/kIXJzF4i_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/9a/02/VuVjPrxa_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/27/87/EjyDhCRc_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f9/4f/O63Col9r_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3e/43/OXeGVrom_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/68/3b/ZoguzsVN_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/2a/d8/2g6a5pAE_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f7/57/xsIpkNd2_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/4f/23/eBf13Wah_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b1/45/IntEJg3O_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/dc/24/YIV3S4HE_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/6a/51/WaWLBpPf_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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Nice.
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Looks good . What is the hole on the flat part of the engine deck ? Pictures I have don't show it
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Looks good . What is the hole on the flat part of the engine deck ? Pictures I have don't show it
Yes, that is odd. It is not on the earlier CAD.
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It won't be on the final model either. Something as an aide for the prototype tooling is my guess.
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Looking good. The fenders do not look overly done as I thought they would be.
When this is released (next year?), I will be one step closer to completing my collection.
That is when I actually get a couple of them.
As for the hole on the engine deck, that does seem strange.
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Well, I received my copy of Panzer Tracts 2-1 and after a thorough study, I am forced to say that while initially tickled pink to get a true early war vehicle, I am now disappointed in the Rubicon offering.
The A, B and C versions all had a rounded front hull. The armor upgrade that gave it the angular look was authorized in February 1940. It included the extra armor on the turret and the glacis plate, as well as the two plates that formed the angular front that covered the rounded hull.
Which means, none of the vehicles shown by Rubicon could have served in Poland. And likely not Norway either. Many armor upgrades were done in time for France 1940, but many round-hull tanks served there too.
So Poland is excluded (again).
There is no point in having the angular front without also having the added armor. There were no angle-fronted Pz II that didn't also have the added armor. And by Poland, all Ausf A, B and C had bullet splash guards added to the superstructure top around the turret ring. So not sure there is any point in a superstructure that doesn't have that splash guard.
So the Ausf A and Ausf B should have bullet splash guards (and it is not there). The Ausf B was the transition model from the vision ports as shown - (with two bolts above and one bolt below the slot) to the improved vision ports (that had two bolts on the vision port itself, and two more bolts above and below for a total of 6). So the Ausf B is fine as shown (other than the rounded hull).
The Ausf C had all improved vision ports (the 6-bolt pattern). But of course, the rounded front hull.
So we have valid Pz IIs for France 1940 onward that can serve in Europe. But none of these can serve in Africa, because all Pz II's sent to Africa were first given a hot climate make-over, and that means the louvers on the radio hatch were enlarged, and also added to the area on the left rear (where there is currently a hatch). In fact, the Ausf F shown has louvers there, but the wrong louvers for the radio hatch.
As I said, now I am a bit disappointed. Nothing for Poland, and nothing for Africa. These are all February 1940 onward.
The Cupola became a back-fit authorized in October 1940 (along with the addition of the Notek blackout light). So at least these can serve in Barbarossa and elsewhere.
I think if the kit had a rounded front hull and no extra armor, and an angular front hull with extra armor, and a rear deck for europe and a rear deck for Africa, this would have been a much more usable kit. Could have served in any campaign from September 1939 onward.
BTW - There were 250 Ausf a, b and c built, 210 Ausf As built, 384 Ausf Bs built, and 364 Ausf Cs built for a total of 1208. Heer records indicate there were 1223 available as of Sep 1st 1939 so somewhere along the line another 15 were manufactured.
All that said, I am still happy to see a plastic Pz II, and I will get me some. And I know, I know, most folks will not know that when I paint them up to serve in Poland, that the angled front is wrong. But ... I will know.
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I just noticed there is the trough for the aerial, but no aerial.
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EWG - good post about the rounded hull fronts.
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@EWG - Well done on the research and pointing out some of the important details between earlier and later Panzer IIs. We will have to wait and see what RM has to say about all this. Hopefully RM knows about this (or maybe not), but how feasible would it have been to try and include all this into one kit?
Between you and me, I prefer the look and period of use of the later angled front over the rounded front, but I completely agree with everything you said above.
One note to make:
With the Ausf F chassis, RM can use the lower hull and tracks to produce a sdkfz 131 Marder II model kit. With over 650 built, how surprising would that be? I still would like to see RM make a M3 Medium (Lee/Grant) model kit first, but at least RM has already completed most of the work and could later add a sdkfz 131 Marder II model kit to the catalog.
(https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzerjagers/Marder-II/Marder_II_PzjgAbt40-24PD-1944.png)
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Thanks for all the comments and input. We are quite aware of the initial elliptical front hull and the rectangular upgrade that we are using. We choose the latter because it extended the vehicle's usefulness into mid-war for many gamers. Also, the rectangular upgrade was actually welded-on plates onto the original elliptical design (plus changes to the roadwheels and suspension system) making it extremely difficult for us to offer two lower hull designs on a 2 sprue kit. Depending on market demand, we might do an early kit later after the current kit is released. As for other conversions and variants, that had to wait too.
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I highly doubt the large majority of people will really care.
Just paint it grey/sand.
Slap some blitzkrieg/Afrika Korp Germans around.
And roll through Poland/North Africa with your toys.
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And by Poland, all Ausf A, B and C had bullet splash guards added to the superstructure top around the turret ring. So not sure there is any point in a superstructure that doesn't have that splash guard.
Follow up on EWG's good research:
Looking at actual photos in books and online, it doesn't seem that every Panzer II had splash guards. Even the surviving Panzer II (an Ausf.C) at Saumur's tank museum does not have splash guards. A lot of photos show splash guards around the turret, but not all, so this part should be optional? Regardless, the Panzer II on the left has splash guards and the one on the right does not.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/1b/55/j4HOLg1v_t.jpg)
I can't wait to get my hands on some of these Panzer II plastic kits from Rubicon Models.
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Well, they built 74 Ausf c (note lower case). This was the first version to have a revamped suspension with 5 road wheels. The driver's visor was a flat rectangle, and the radio operator's hatch had vents that ran parallel to the tracks (as opposed to perpendicular). It also had two fire extinguishers (reduced to one by the time the Ausf A came along). But otherwise, it can easily be confused with an Ausf A.
I mention this because the Ausf c and Ausf A look very similar. If not for the new driver's visor being a raised triangle (instead of flat), and having only one fire extinguisher, and different angle to the radio hatch vents ... the two were very close. During production of the Ausf A, bullet deflectors were bolted in various spots around the turret ring, but not all Ausf A got those.
As far as I can find out, the Ausf c was not retrofitted with bullet deflectors. I have seen photos of Ausf c that were backfitted with more armor on the turret front, glacis plate, and front hull, and a cupola. But I have yet to find a single photo of an Ausf c that had bullet deflectors.
So it seems to me that all Pz II Ausf c had no bullet deflectors, and some of the Ausf As also had no bullet deflectors. By the Ausf B they were part of standard production.
So I may have misspoken when I said that by Poland, all A, B and C models had splash guards. Certainly all B and C, and most A's did. I am searching for the reference where I thought I read that Ausf As were backfitted with bullet splash guards. So until I can confirm, I will go with "some" Ausf As had it, and some did not, for Poland.
I think when looking at photos of Pz IIs in Poland, lots of them are side shots, and thus it makes it hard to know if it is an Ausf c (lower case), or one of the A, B or C models. Perhaps a fire extinguisher on the front, right fender is the give-away that it is an Ausf c.
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@EWG - you said, "Nothing for Poland, and nothing for Africa." But I have been looking at photos of Pz IIs in Africa. I see a lot of Pz IIs with the angled front hull. Not so many with the rounded front hull, but I see these too. Certainly the Ausf. F was in Africa.
Looks like the rounded hull is exclusive to Spain, Poland, and possibly Norway. However, I was just reading that a number of changes were being added because of the lessons learned in Spain. One of these changes being the angled bow plate (more armor). This suggests that the angled front hull was being added before the Polish campaign of 1939, but I have not yet seen a photo of a Pz II in Poland (1939) with the angled front hull. That being said, over 1,000 Pz IIs participated in the Polish Campaign, and if the angled hull was being added before the campaign, how many Pz IIs got this upgrade, if any at all? If any did have the angled hull, it might have been a small portion, so how likely is it that we are going to find a photo? I do not have the Panzer Tracts booklet... yet? EWG, does your Panzer Tracts book have any good hard details about this?
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Panzer Tracts 2-1 has PLENTY of GREAT details.
If we remain focused only on the Ausf A, B and C (book 2-1 covers the early models plus those three production models) then we learn that all of them, every A, every B and every C came from the factory with a rounded hull.
We know that "some" Ausf As had bullet splash guards bolted to the top of the superstructure.
We know that most Ausf Bs had bullet splash guards welded to the top of the superstructure.
We know that all Ausf Cs had bullet splash guards welded to the top of the superstructure.
We know that only rounded hull versions of the Pz II served in Poland and Norway. We know that "many" rounded hull models served in France 1940.
There is an entire chapter (just a few pages) dedicated to all of the official orders authorizing back-fitting of improvements.
The order that allowed upgraded armor (to the turret face, the glacis plate, and the rounded-hull front) is dated February 1940. And mention is made that this was under way during February and March of 1940. But there was specific references to certain vehicles in certain Panzer Regiments (5th and 6th of the 3rd Panzer Division), probably in anticipation of France. But not every Ausf c through Ausf C were back-fitted in this way during those two months.
There is specific mention that 4th Panser Division was in the process of getting their Pz IIs upgraded with the additional armor package, but that not all of them were completed when the invasion of France began.
In October 1940 the cupola upgrade was authorized. October 1940 is also when the blackout headlight was mandated.
So the picture as I see it is this:
Poland 1939 - only rounded hull, no additional armor. Ausf A, B and C were all there. We are talking with and without bullet splash shields, and slight differences in vision ports as the main (recognizable) differences.
Norway 1940 - only rounded hull, no additional armor.
Have not sorted out if any Pz IIs that attacked the low countries had the armor-upgrade. The only two Panzer Divisions mentioned invaded France.
France 1940 you should see both rounded-hull and up-armored versions.
After France, just about every Pz II would have the additional armor.
So my "complaint" is that since none of the hulls shown in the kit are rounded, that means that hull has the extra armor. Which means nobody should ever build this kit with the extra armor missing from the superstructure or the turret.
This means ... having kit pieces that lack the armor upgrade on the turret and superstructure are two pieces that should never be used. There should never be a Pz II A, B or C that has the angled front but is MISSING the additional armor on the turret and driver's front plate.
There is also mention that in February 1941, "Tropenfaehig" (tropical) modifications were authorized for any Ausf A thru Ausf C that were shipping to Africa to be part of Panzer Regiments 5 and 8. By 1941 all Pz IIs would have been back-fitted with the additional armor,
Since the rear hull top plate is "fixed" and there is no provision to either install the standard louvers or the tropical louvers, then the kit as shown is european duty only.
So for the purist, the advertising campaign for this kit should not state that it can build any Ausf A, B or C, early to mid war. Not true. It can only build an Ausf A, B or C for europe, starting with France 1940.
And that means they designed a kit and configured the sprues to include pieces that should not be used. Ever.
I know it is true that most won't care. And this kit will certainly see white crosses for Poland and Afrika Korps colors and palm trees. But unlike the Soviet T-26 which really can be made into one of 10 different versions of that tank, this kit is limited. And that is too bad.
If the hull were rounded, and there was a two piece plate that could be glued over it to form the angled front, this kit would open up to greater possibilities. And having the rear engine deck have a couple of different panels to show european and african louvers, this kit would be amazing in its versatility.
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Too bad the Germans didn't design they're vehicles in the Lego like fashion the Yanks did , its pretty easy to swap out Sherman transmission covers , wheel mounts , even engine decks kit parts . No so with the Panzers I'm afraid . I guess Rubicon could redesign the hull to give the round nose option and the engine deck could have a variety of louver types but how long would that take and how much would it cost ? And is there a " need " for a very early war Panzer II , how many gamers really want it ? How many would want the small wheel a ,b version instead ? I assume Rubicon have done the research and have a good idea of what the community wants in a Panzer II , this site being a very small part of that community no matter how special we think we are .
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I get why this kit could not have the Ausf a, b and c models, as the track design was totally different, and that could become a lot of extra parts that might up the sprue count.
But I think the hull could have been made rounded, with a couple of small flat panels that could be glued over that rounded hull to make it the armor upgrade. And you would need a rear engine deck that had two openings, where you installed the driver hatch and the access hatch for the radiator. A solid hatch over the radiator is for europe. A louvered access hatch is for Africa. We are talking a few extra pieces to allow the kit to serve ANYWHERE at ANY TIME.
Still delighted to have a plastic Pz II. Just saying the kit could have been better designed to accommodate those gamers or model makers who care/want proper kits for Poland, Norway and Africa.
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And that means they designed a kit and configured the sprues to include pieces that should not be used. Ever.
Thanks for sharing EWG. Hopefully Rubicon Models will read your notes because they are good.
Maybe Rubicon Models will remove those parts from the kit plan that should not be used. They can then use the freed up space to add something more useful like a new rear deck (or make adjustments to the existing parts). This way their Panzer II model kit can be assembled for either Europe or Africa. How nice would that be?
Overall, I am really excited about this new Panzer II kit from Rubicon Models.
I assume Rubicon have done the research and have a good idea of what the community wants in a Panzer II , this site being a very small part of that community no matter how special we think we are .
Yes, but remember the Panzer III idler wheel issue?
What about the Panzer IV barrel issue?
No matter how careful we can be, sometimes mistakes do happen.
Overall, Rubicon Models does a really good job.
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Speaking of Idler Wheels...
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjKHbFNw/Pnzr2idlerwheel.jpg)
Also, do people know that the 20mm gun barrel on the Pz.II Ausf, F is slightly longer than that on the Ausf. c, A, B, C? All the Panzer IIs used the same ammunition, but the barrel length (in calibers) was slightly increased for the Ausf. F, which gave the 20mm shell a bit more velocity and a bit more AP punch. However, on a 1;56 scale gaming kit, it might not be worth the extra trouble to include this detail. However, I do hope RM does not make the gun barrel too thin since this is mostly going to be a gaming model kit.
Yes!.. finally a Panzer II in plastic. :)
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I get your point on early miss steps by Rubicon , I was thinking about research into customers wanting an early round nose II . If out of 100 gamers polled , only half a dozen want that version , is it worth adding the parts to the kit ? I wouldn't think so . And yes , I had to go back and check the CAD designs on page 1 of this thread , the F version does have that style idler
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Does anyone has the blueprint for the round hull Panzer II?
We can look into integrating it into the kit if part space permits.
Thanks!
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George Bradford's Stackpole book was of no help showing a Pz II Aus b with original running gear, a Pz II Aus C with angle front and an Pz II Aus F.
The more I explore this Panzer I see pictures of Pz II Aus A with angled fronts, Pz II Aus C with angled fronts but plenty of rounded hulls of the Pz II Aus b & c in pictures from 1938 - 1941 on all active fronts..
I'm encouraged by the above request for blueprints.
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I have the drawings from the Panzer Tracts 2-1. I will scan those and post.
It has blueprints of the Ausf c (out of scope for the kit, perhaps, but the first of the 5-road-wheel suspensions), and then an Ausf A, Ausf B and Ausf C ... showing the subtle changes to each. And then finally an Ausf B with back-fitted elements (extra armor, notek headlight, cupola, stowage bin on right fender ... and the "Tropen" mods (larger, and extra, louvers on the engine deck).
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The first book I checked was my "World War II AFV Plans - German Early War Armored Fighting Vehicles" by George Bradford, and like Jaeger, I was disappointed to find that there was no drawing of the Pz.II c/A/B/C with the rounded front.
That didn't stop me. I then checked my Squadron Signal, Osprey, AFV Profile, and Schiffer books, but no good drawings. However, I have found some good pictures in these books, and in many others including the Armor at War series (including German Light Tanks). Some really good pictures, but no detailed drawings. What is frustrating is that I have several Panzer Tracts books, but not No.2-1 and No.2-2.
Hopefully EWG can get those pages scanned for Rubicon Models. How great would that be if Rubicon Models can somehow integrate both a rounded hull and the angled hull giving the gamer/modeller more choices. That being said, if given one choice, I would prefer the angled hull as planned above.
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Here is the blueprint for the Pz II Ausf c (lower case). This was the first Pz II to have the five road wheels. They built 74 of these. The Ausf A, B and C which followed took this as the base, and added improvements. Some were internal, and some were small visible changes. I am including it here as a baseline.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJRHKY0R/Pz-II-Ausf-c-Lower.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJRHKY0R)
Here is the blueprint for the Ausf A. Biggest changes were the peaked driver's visor, and the one-piecve radio operator's hatch. Keen eyed observers will note that the Ausf A had just one fire extinguisher on the left-rear fender. The one that was on the right-front fender has been done away with (you will see it on the Ausf c diagram).
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJRHKY0R/Pz-II-Ausf-c-Lower.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJRHKY0R)
Here is the blueprint for the Ausf B. This one has bullet deflectors around the turret ring, and by the two forward facing visors. Two more subtle changes ... there is now a reinforcing bar across the rear hull, and if you know where to look, there is a scalloped piece of metal welded to the rear engine compartment It was scalloped to make the weld longer. This was used to reinforce the engine compartment because earlier models started cracking right here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXq2G2mb/Pz-II-Ausf-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXq2G2mb)
Here is the blueprint for the Ausf C. The visors have changed slightly,
(https://i.postimg.cc/w7rGLSLr/Pz-II-Ausf-C-Upper.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w7rGLSLr)
And here is a blueprint showing an Ausf B that has been back-fitted with several authorized upgrades. This one has ALSO been given the "Tropen" upgrade, because it is headed to North Africa. This includes larger louvers on the radio operators hatch, and new louvers on the left-rear engine deck (over the radiator).
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWnbRXTZ/Pz-II-Ausf-B-Backfit-and-Tropen.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWnbRXTZ)
There is one more scan I meant to take and upload, showing the differences in the driver's vision port, and the vision ports around the vehicle (but I have not had the time to get to that one yet).
Enjoy
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Thanks @EWG. We have also found some references and is already working on it a few days ago. Your blueprints will help to confirm our drawings are correct. Thank again!
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EWG and Rubicon Models, a wonderful combination!
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@Rubicon Models: When I was going through my books, I found a lot of good photos, but there was one picture I thought would be useful for you as a reference. It is the cover art from one of my Osprey books (Duel No.66, Panzer II vs 7TP). It is a CAD illustration and not an actual photograph, but what makes this useful is the angle at which you can see the front hull.
I thought this could be useful for you, so here it is.
If you need a higher resolution or anything, just let me know.
Just click on the thumbnail image below to get the full image.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2qc8dpNS/Panzer2drawing-CAD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2qc8dpNS)
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@EWG, the scan resolution of the blueprints are too low to actually useful. Do you have better copies? Thanks!!
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We have updated our 3D drawings to include the earlier round hull variants for Ausf A/B.
They were on our original plan but due to the extra number of parts for the suspension panels (really large) and sprocket drive covers (really tiny), we had initially decided not to include them to the final product due to sprue space. But due to someone here keep nagging about it, we did go back and look at our design again to find a possible solution... and here it is (with minimal part additions)!
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/17/b4/DYSPlps9_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8f/4a/tItNOZFa_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/2d/4b/8UuQxsNw_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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So, the same Panzer II kit will now be able to make either the angled front hull or the rounded front hull? :o
Overall, this was probably a very good choice to make. ;)
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So, the same Panzer II kit will now be able to make either the angled front hull or the rounded front hull?
Yes, we did a major design change (plus some engineering "cheating") which we thought was not possible when we started the project. Of course, that will complicate hull assembly with some smaller parts now. The Panzer II started out to be a very small tank even in 1/56 scale...
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Well done..
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Do you still need better scans? Mine defaults to 300 dpi and I never think to even look at that to see what my options are. I can check that out to see if I can get a higher resolution ... if you still need them.
But THANK YOU for including the rounded hull. I am so VERY HAPPY that you found a way to make that happen!!!
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Mould Making in Progress (or on queue)
------ Panzer II
------ SdKfz 10
Of all the future Rubicon Models kits to be released in the next few years, these two plastic model kits are the ones I look forward to trying to obtain the most.
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Will rubicon will include a wespe in their panzer II 3D drawing ? that could be a great opportunity to add with some little more work at the same time a 105mm german field artillery to their range ?
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Our first plastic test shots for the Panzer II, only four months after the initial 3D drawings... not too bad!
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ed/4f/9sY9yvWB_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f1/11/dijHE1fW_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/06/fc/nlq1ZdEX_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/73/45/HWwpdIvw_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/2d/7d/qlodK1z4_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/84/cb/p65SiNiC_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/93/cc/dnCdVltS_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/83/8c/HGylcr6L_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/41/b6/fmMmryc3_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/1d/2e/hZqMkAzx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ee/5c/ZuxcUrIV_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0a/73/y9NBtnXM_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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Excellent.
Amazing progress.
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Fantastic!!! You even included a front hull piece with and without tow cables!
I am going to need a fleet of these. how wonderful!
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Fantastic. This is looking like it will be a wonderful kit when released! I can't wait. I wish I had the Panzer Tracts series for the Panzer II to check a few details to prevent a repeat of what happened with the Panzer III kit.
One plastic Panzer II kit to make them all... well done Rubicon Models!
I wouldn't be surprised if this kit sells very well. Yes, I already know there is a nice resin Panzer II model out there, but this new plastic kit will beat that resin model in every category as well as meet the needs (and more) of the common gamer.
And the kit comes with a tank commander figure... nice!
Side Bar:
This is a general note for all kits. If Rubicon Models is reading this, I also have one suggestion. When it comes to MGs, I very much like the idea that Rubicon Models included a choice of MGs for gamer or modeller - M4 kit for example. However, it is a shame that this is not standard practice with all their plastic kits. As an example, the Jagdpanzer 38(t) kit comes with a very thin modellers MG. I ended up replacing it for several reasons. After all, mostly miniature gamers (not modellers) buy these very nice 1:56 scale plastic kits.
See parts D05 and D06 of step 1 - for gaming use with a thickened gun barrel :)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Assembly%20Instructions/280042%20M4A3-M4A3E8%20170125-p2_zpswkypuku2.jpg)
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Lots of photos for this little German tank!
You get 4 variants (Ausf A/B/C/F) and 8 variations including a command option... everything from 3 plastic sprues.
Watch out for variations on those small armoured hull hatches, rear exhausts, smoke launchers, and tank accessory layouts. We spent lots of time comparing notes and references to make sure they are historically accurate.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8f/cc/7i7RQ8Qo_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a9/de/SIl3IkHO_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3d/23/JWZsVaqh_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/70/19/EXCIQU6d_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/df/a5/KSdDZcXR_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/81/4d/MpeNjlqP_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/02/bc/l7QWE9jf_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/de/66/3AAdWQ4m_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/21/6f/ix4hEyqV_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ab/d4/sFw5Cpzf_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3c/81/21Mbn02D_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ea/21/Ie5j26a8_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0e/91/y9rglS1U_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/94/a4/pyc5FTtG_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/25/44/WpNQXmnn_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ba/49/Tr2MdQOi_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3d/cd/L0GBEuL1_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0b/e2/n6mA1Syc_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/6c/10/RfOGayyt_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/01/6e/UdXzxtcH_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a2/d2/fgNi4R9z_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/24/a6/KiU0cQqX_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/52/89/lkjNLZij_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/63/a9/NBCATNiK_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/cb/74/Ie17Ut2Q_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/16/c4/kzdPF7kz_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/88/1d/i8mks2H1_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/46/36/0ROyiQpi_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/39/bf/kH0PKwCx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d8/4f/H6tvXtpU_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/3e/df/uNv7GbOx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c6/73/vLJz9Mtx_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/dc/42/QjvQUXi2_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/6b/fa/kxaab0by_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f0/01/IwQWj3oD_t.jpg)
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/cd/b4/eKUpdeJY_t.jpg)
Enjoy!
;)
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That is exceptional!
2 curved fronts, many variations possible, impeccable details, this will be a great addition to my collection.
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Loving every little detail!
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That looks great (I do not have knowledge to say how accurate it is, but it convinces me).
Not sure which ones I would build, but build them I will.
I will have to look up the "What A Tanker" points cost.
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You get 4 variants (Ausf A/B/C/F) and 8 variations including a command option... everything from 3 plastic sprues.
Looking forward to getting my hands on some of these little German tanks.
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These were announced sometime ago, and it looks like they are almost done.
Does anyone know what the projected release dates are for the SdKfz 10 and the Panzer II plastic kits?
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Does anyone know what the projected release dates are for the SdKfz 10 and the Panzer II plastic kits?
The SdKfz 10 is coming in the next release wave, while the Panzer II will be in the one after... can't catch up with all the pre-release works.
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With the all Covid-19 stuff going on, things seem to have come to a stand still. Including the SdKfZ.10 and Panzer II projects.
Makes sense really since this has also happened to most gaming around the world as well.
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Still can't wait for the Panzer II kit to be released. With the pandemic situation going on, I guess it will still be awhile before we see this beauty? Any projected dates set?
I already have a resin + metal Panzer II from Warlord Games, and it works for tabletop gaming, but I look forward to replacing it with a wonderful Rubicon Models kit.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8f/cc/7i7RQ8Qo_t.jpg)
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Still can't wait for the Panzer II kit to be released. With the pandemic situation going on, I guess it will still be awhile before we see this beauty? Any projected dates set?
Definitely before Christmas from our side... but shipping factors are unknown!