SdKfz 251/1 Ausf D - Project CLOSED!

[Laffe]

That stern antenna could be mounted on your regular tank to denote a command vehicle too 

[han5gruber]

Great news!  The 'Stummel' is my favourite variant of the SdKfz 251, and your Ausf D kit is a really nice one, so it'll be a good excuse to buy more.

The SdKfz 251/3 seems like a good addition; I like the idea of a command half-track.  While the frame antenna is very iconic, it disappeared from command SPWs from about 1942. 

The SdKfz 251/22 would be a nice late war variant.  I'd also suggest that a mortar carrier would be useful.  Dunno about the others - the 'Drilling' certainly looked good.

I'm not entirely sure you are correct, here's a couple of photos from Budapest in 44 showing exactly what Rubicon is proposing.

[Pinky]

Yes, I've seen those photos.  There was also at least one senior commander's Ausf D with a frame antenna.  What's not clear is whether these are production vehicles, since officially the frame antenna was replaced.

[Rubicon Models]

Interesting Problem and Possible Solutions ??

We have run into a slight problem that would like some constructive comments:

- When we designed the SdKfz 251, we already have plans to create several Expansion Add-on Kits for the Ausf D
- Each expansion kit will contain two or three variants for the SdKfz 251 family, depending on complexity and number of parts needed
- We also have plans to do a SdKfz 251 Ausf C at a later stage
- Our plan is to make these expansion kits totally compatible with both Ausf D and later Ausf C
- All planned variants have no problem whatsoever except for two popular variants
- The first one is the Stuka zu Fuss; the rocket frames needed to arrange slightly different for each variant because of the difference in vehicle length, so we choose the Ausf D for obvious reasons
- Second being the SdKfz 251/22 that came with the PaK 40

Here are the angle / top / side views of the SdKfz 251/22 Ausf D for your references:







The PaK 40 has a special mount that sit inside the 251 chassis, with the gun barrel sitting just on top of vehicle as shown.  The vehicle at the bottom of each drawing is the correct line drawing.  The GREEN patch is where the front MG used to be.

The Problem - ALL other variants that we added to the expansion kits do not need to change the layout design of the green-colored area.

Best Solution - Best solution is to create a new chassis top for the Ausf D, but then we will also need to include a modified Ausf C chassis to this kit; a product that we have planned but not even released.

Alternatives - The next best thing is to add an extra plate on top of the existing one mimicking the original intended design as shown in ORANGE!

If we were to use the alternative approach, this could be applied to BOTH Ausf D and later Ausf C without the need for TWO new chassis tops, thus saving a lot of sprue space.  Unfortunately, this will compromised historical accuracy with the original design.

What do you think?

Please comment and thanks!

[Pinky]

Not sure you actually have a problem.  Neither the late version of the SdKfz 251/9 (the version you've depicted, with a bolt-on armoured shield and co-axial MG) nor the SdKfz 251/22 were built on the Ausf C.  They were late war variants, and only built on the Ausf D body.  There are some other variants that were only built on the Ausf D body, some of which you mentioned in an earlier post.

On the other hand, the Ausf C version of the SdKfz 251/9 would require a revised body (and a different gun mount) because the gun was installed in a cut-away section beside the driver's position.  The initial Ausf D version also had a cutaway section.

I suggest you do an "Ausf D only" upgrade sprue, featuring the most popular/useful variants that only appeared on the Ausf D.

[Rubicon Models]

Not sure you actually have a problem.  Neither the late version of the SdKfz 251/9 (the version you've depicted, with a bolt-on armoured shield and co-axial MG) nor the SdKfz 251/22 were built on the Ausf C.  They were late war variants, and only built on the Ausf D body.  There are some other variants that were only built on the Ausf D body, some of which you mentioned in an earlier post.

We are aware of the SdKfz 251/9 situation.  However, for the SdKfz 251/22, depending on the source (on both historical and modeling websites), some indicated it was produced on both Ausf C and D variants.  Of course, we can limited the build for Ausf D only.  This is also why we posted on the forum for further comments before we committed ourselves to the current plan.

On the other hand, the Ausf C version of the SdKfz 251/9 would require a revised body (and a different gun mount) because the gun was installed in a cut-away section beside the driver's position.  The initial Ausf D version also had a cutaway section.

The SdKfz 251/9 will have a new revised body and interior for the Ausf D.  No worries about that!  The bolt-on version is meant for Ausf D and may be for the SdKfz 250/8 at a later stage!

I suggest you do an "Ausf D only" upgrade sprue, featuring the most popular/useful variants that only appeared on the Ausf D.

That's something we are planning to do, but we are also grouping Ausf C & D compatible variants onto another sprue.

[ripley]

As Pinky says , just release up grades for your 251 D .  You don't want to be wasting your sprue  space on parts to adapt to another company's kit . If they change their design , your kit becomes useless to the owner of said kit . Design for your own  kit and those of us Modelers who have the skill will make it fit any kit we want    Of course if you decide to release your own 251 C , go ahead and add those pieces to your up grade kit

[Rubicon Models]

Of course if you decide to release your own 251 C , go ahead and add those pieces to your up grade kit

We do want to release a 251C at a later stage with most of our current expansion kits compatible.  We are trying to group these variants into groups so that modelers/gamers can make each sprue useful... For example, buying a 3-in-1 kit and 3 basic 251s will enable you to build 3 variants!

[Pinky]

We are aware of the SdKfz 251/9 situation.  However, for the SdKfz 251/22, depending on the source (on both historical and modeling websites), some indicated it was produced on both Ausf C and D variants.  Of course, we can limited the build for Ausf D only.  This is also why we posted on the forum for further comments before we committed ourselves to the current plan.

There will always be field conversions, prototypes and other obscure vehicle types, so anything is theoretically possible.  But the Ausf C was well out of production when the SdKfz 251/22 was introduced (which was very late in 1944), and there weren't many Ausf Cs left in service to be converted by that time.  The SdKfz 251/22 was a rare vehicle even in its Ausf D form.  It seems like a distraction to even think about trying to cover an Ausf C version.

I think you might have misunderstood what I said about the SdKfz 251/9.  I know you're doing the bolt-on K.51(Sf.) mounting for the Ausf D.  The point is that this was not used on the Ausf C version of the SdKfz 251/9, which had a different configuration.  So, your current  SdKfz 251/9 add-on will only be suitable for an Ausf D. 

Here's the Ausf C version pf the SdKfz 251/9:

[han5gruber]

Add the small orange part. 9 out of 10 games won't realise or care that its not historically correct.

[Rubicon Models]

Another 3D drawing done... this time - SdKfz 251/16D Flammpanzerwagen! 

Fitted with two flame projectors and initially a rear mounted flamethrower, detachable but still connected to the vehicle, to be operated by dismounted infantry. This was in addition to the standard forward machine gun mount. Six SdKfz 251/16 Flammpanzerwagens were authorised for issue to each Panzergrenadier Regiment.

[Pinky]

I've never seen photos showing the shield design in your drawing.  I noticed there's an online blueprint with something similar, but there's no way of knowing what that's based on.

Here are some drawings of the SdKfz 251/16 mittlere Flammpanzerwagen Ausf C.  Note the design of the armoured shields and length and shape of the nozzles.  I've also attached some photos of the Ausf C (including one of a group of them, purely because they look cool).  The Ausf C version differed from the Ausf D. 

[Pinky]

The design of the nozzles and shields was changed in May 1944, and the portable flamethrower was dropped.  Here are some photos of the Ausf D version.  I have to say, it must have been a bit terrifying to fire those flamethrowers from an open-topped vehicle.

[elcee]

Modeling pov:

Regarding the 251/22
1. Do a version d only kit. Its a late war model and if there were /22 c versions those were most likely field conversions.
2. while thed "new" upper hull looks better you might print (let print) test pieces and decide then. Even a sinlgle hull piece takes up a lot space on the sprue. So the gained detail might not be worth the lost space.

regarding the 251/9 d & c
The version you did should be the late version, so its version d only. The c version and early d version both used a gun next to the driver. (see pinky)

gamer pov:

BUT regarding the vast amount of field coversions the wehrmacht had you might go the route with the minimum of changes parts for both. So the extra part on the mg mount and it should work with both versions. Im pretty sure they would have mounted the gun of an irrepairable d on a c if they had one ...
Let the people choose if they want to use version c or d in the end IF they care about (absolute) historical accuracy its up to them.
More flexibility should equal more sales...

[Rubicon Models]

elcee, thanks for the constructive comments!

There is no big secret that we will eventually produce a SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C plastic kit, just a matter when? 

We have no intention of competing with other manufacturers, but we think there are certain armoured vehicles that are very iconic, and need to be produced and included in our product portfolio.

Therefore, when we design our 251 expansion kits (including all previous and future releases), we will include features/components that are Ausf C or D specific.  Some later variants, such as 251/22, there might only be an Ausf D version, and not Ausf C.  In fact, a 251/22 Ausf C customer conversion is extremely easy to do!

As for the 251/9, it is more complicated.  The design we have shown is applicable to either a 251D or 250 Neu model; however, 3D drawing for the earlier 251/9 variant (251C and early 251D) is almost done as well!  So we might also include them in the production plan.

All in all, we will wait until 3D drawings of all planned 251 variants are done, then we will decided what to do next!