Author Topic: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Eye Candy - 170623  (Read 8560 times)

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2017, 09:03:07 AM »
That's very interesting Pinky. Can you give us the name of the book. I'll see if it is available and at what price.

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2017, 10:04:42 AM »
It's a point made by Zaloga in a couple of books - Zaloga has taken upon himself the task of correcting the (in his view) false impressions created by some Panzer-obsessed authors.  It's also mentioned by Forczyk in his books on armoured combat on the eastern Front.  I would recommend these, except that I though the 2nd volume was a bit rushed compared to the 1st.

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2017, 11:23:08 AM »
Thanks Pinky. I'm interested in what the motivation would be. I remember reading somewhere at least one commander of the SS Divisions at Arnhem had told his superiors before the battle many of his tanks were disabled and under repair. He feared they were going to be taken off him if they were known to be operational. Not sure how true that is.

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2017, 03:01:38 PM »
I'll see if I can find the reference.  You'd think that, as in your example, a unit leader would understate the number 'runners', for the reason you mention and also so he could some replacements. 

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2017, 10:02:00 PM »
So Forczyk's point is that Jentz's numbers overstate the actual number of tanks available.  He says that the percentage of total write-offs in 1943 was only 12%, but the actual state of combat-readiness was far lower.  According to Forczyk, strength returns included non-operational tanks, which were kept with the division rather than sending them back for depot-level maintenance.  This was because the replacement system was chaotic and irrational, and units never knew when they would get tanks back from repair.  From 'Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1943-1945'.  As I said, this doesn't alter your point about the Ausf C.

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2017, 05:49:20 AM »
That does make sense. Particularly the long grind in the East and later elsewhere. It occurs to me the same pressures on commanders probably didn't apply in the early campaigns in Poland and France. Firstly the campaigns were short and very mobile so badly damaged vehicles couldn't have kept up with their units. Secondly once the campaigns were over there were many months for the repair centres to do their work before they were needed again. In those circumstances it was probably in commanders interests to report honestly and get repairable vehicles fixed.

 

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2017, 06:55:21 AM »
Pinky, I did note that you weren't saying this particular discussion related to the early war period and the Ausf C. By the way I do concede the Panzer IV Ausf C wasn't at Normandy, or later at Arnhem or in the Ardennes. Although (a little tongue in cheek) perhaps a couple of forlorn examples were dragged out of training establishments during the collapse of the Reich! A nice little scenario for a wargame.         

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2017, 09:55:55 AM »
That does make sense. Particularly the long grind in the East and later elsewhere. It occurs to me the same pressures on commanders probably didn't apply in the early campaigns in Poland and France. Firstly the campaigns were short and very mobile so badly damaged vehicles couldn't have kept up with their units. Secondly once the campaigns were over there were many months for the repair centres to do their work before they were needed again. In those circumstances it was probably in commanders interests to report honestly and get repairable vehicles fixed.

That's right - this point was being made in the context of the early 1943 period.  But the German replacement system was terrible from the outset (mostly because of hopelessly inadequate production), and even in the 'Blitzkrieg' period the Panzer Divisions suffered from a gradual erosion in strength as tanks were knocked out or simply wore out.  Apparently that was a major factor in the infamous 'halt order' as the Germans reached Dunkirk.

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 10:08:15 AM »
By the way I do concede the Panzer IV Ausf C wasn't at Normandy, or later at Arnhem or in the Ardennes. Although (a little tongue in cheek) perhaps a couple of forlorn examples were dragged out of training establishments during the collapse of the Reich! A nice little scenario for a wargame.         

There were some early model Panzer IV's in Normandy - 21 Panzer had 21 of them.

An Ausf B (apparently - also sometimes identified as an Ausf C - it should be dark yellow, but it might be a very faded and weathered dark grey):



An Ausf C of 21 Panzer Division (this one is quite well known and features in the Osprey Panzer IV title - note that it's probably dark grey with a dark yellow overspray, not overall dark yellow with green camo):


« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 12:53:11 AM by Pinky »

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 07:11:41 PM »
Wow, that's interesting. It would appear the Ausf C would have wider appeal than even I thought. I'd read the survivors retired during 1943. Perhaps they did and made a comeback. The survival of the Ausf B is even more remarkable considering only 42 were built in the first place. I hope Mr Rubicon is aware of this. The 'C' might move one notch up the priority list. The gaming world doesn't appear to lack people interested in Normandy 1944.   

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »
IRC the IWM has a Pzr IV D hull with a long 75 mounted in the turret  , captured in Normandy from a training unit rushed into combat . So the older versions of vehicles  did see some combat ( SdKfz 222 in Berlin 45  :o )

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 10:49:31 PM »
This one?

http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=156

I am not sure if I have any photographs of it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 10:51:53 PM by ultravanillasmurf »

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2017, 01:07:42 AM »
A lot of Panzers were rebuilt and upgraded in the process.  I think that's the origin of the Tank Museum's 'hybrid' Panzer IV.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:10:54 AM by Pinky »

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2017, 09:42:19 AM »
If you look at picture # 4 in the link smurf posted you can see it has the single turret side door and old style commanders cupola . The gun swap would be easy , the internals for the longer L43 or L48 gun rounds would not . There are pictures of similar tank in Encyclopedia of German tanks captioned tank driver school vehicle . Either wa,y for  driver training , and gunner training when the longer guns with anti tank rounds its a cool vehicle . One of the old M3 style wheeled Shermans , that served in North Africa was knocked out in apr / may 45  near Berlin so all sides had vehicles that spent a long time in use

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - New 2017 Project
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2017, 07:14:50 AM »
I think you're right ripley. All nations would have old equipment to some extent. Although those under the greatest stress and lacking the massive production capability of the US would be more likely to be placed in this position.

It occurs to me games would be more interesting if they occasionally included a variety of the old and new. Particularly if historically correct. Unfortunately I think we tend to be driven by points values and the like and the need to get the greatest bang for the buck in the effort to win.