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South African M4A3 105

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Golf Alpha Zulu:
Thanks. Fixed...I think...

Pinky:
Picking up on a comment in your blog, according to Mark Hayward's book on the Firefly, the 6th South African Armoured Division had a small number of Fireflies, and (as you mentioned above) also used Sherman IIAs.

Golf Alpha Zulu:
Thanks for the reference - will see if I can track it down.

[geek mode] The most authoritative sources I can find on the division in Italy are William Marshall's articles in the SA Colours Series, and his two books on the SA 6th. But his research is ongoing, and he has from time to time revised his descriptions of the SA 6th TO&E. I have corresponded with him, to ask him to help me to try to fit particular photographs into particular timeframes, and it is by no means an easy process... (Example - there are no known unit records of the division ever having had Sherman IIIs - yet there is a photo of 2 knocked out SA Mk IIIs near Perugia... when did they arrive?)

There are plenty of photographs of SA 6th Fireflies in Italy. The timeline is approximately this: The Fireflies weren't used in training (in Egypt) so most likely were issued once the division was already in Italy (i.e. - sometime shortly after April 1944). The Fireflies all appear in SCC 15, unlike the bulk of the division's other tanks at that time which were in the Light Mud/Black Grey pattern - applied while still in Egypt. In November 1944, the division was pulled out of the line for rest and refit at Prato, and the bulk of the Sherman Vs were replaced by the Mk II 76's. The unit's historical documentation suggests the Fireflies were also at this point replaced by Mk II 76's, but that is not supported by all the photographic evidence... (as I said, there is a photo of both being used by the Pretoria Regiment, at a parade in early 1945 to mark the division's farewell to the 24th Guards Brigade - which had served under command of the SA 6th)... [/geek mode]

Pinky:
Interesting.  There are photos of British units in Italy fielding a mixture of Sherman Vcs and Sherman IIAs so it seems likely the South Africans did too.  They had 126 Sherman IIAs, apparently.

For what it's worth, Fletcher's Osprey book on the Firefly says the South African Fireflies were probably concentrated in the HQ Squadrons of 11th South African Armoured Brigade, and were probably painted dark green towards the end of the war. 

I'd guess any Sherman IIIs were replacements from British stocks - they were much more common in Italy than in NW Europe, and many soldiered on to the end.

Golf Alpha Zulu:

--- Quote from: Pinky on November 09, 2016, 01:09:43 am ---Interesting.  There are photos of British units in Italy fielding a mixture of Sherman Vcs and Sherman IIAs so it seems likely the South Africans did too.  They had 126 Sherman IIAs, apparently.
--- End quote ---


Thanks. Thats useful. Records show 255 total Shermans on strength at war end. Unfortunately they dont distinguish between various Sherman models.


--- Quote from: Pinky on November 09, 2016, 01:09:43 am ---For what it's worth, Fletcher's Osprey book on the Firefly says the South African Fireflies were probably concentrated in the HQ Squadrons of 11th South African Armoured Brigade, and were probably painted dark green towards the end of the war.
--- End quote ---


I think that is correct for later in the war (the Firefly in the foreground of the PR parade pic has HQ squadron markings). Apparently they were originally issued at 2 per squadron, and I have seen photos of SA Fireflies with B and C squadron markings from earlier in the war.


--- Quote from: Pinky on November 09, 2016, 01:09:43 am ---I'd guess any Sherman IIIs were replacements from British stocks - they were much more common in Italy than in NW Europe, and many soldiered on to the end.
--- End quote ---


That makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for all the input. Appreciated. And thanks for indulging my geeking out on these details... ;D

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