Author Topic: German AA/AT Guns - 2cm Flakvierling 38 TS1 Test Assembly 180115  (Read 14053 times)

Tracks

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #135 on: December 03, 2017, 01:34:14 AM »
Crews:
My only concern would be with the crews. Not just for the Flak36/37, but also with the Pak38 and Pak40. If you make them too anatomically correct, they will not blend in well with other 28mm WW2 miniatures (plastic or metal). Also, they will not be popular with gamers. For some reason, gamers hate anatomically correct miniatures. There must be a fine line between anatomically correct and looking "gaming" good.

There are just times that we must make our stance.  In the old days of the garage or home-brew foundries, many figures were sculpted anatomically correct; but the final product (the metal figure) was being distorted due to bad rubber mould castings... they got squeezed and deformed.  Of course, there are many factors that lead to the horrible "gorilla" style (some called them heroic-scale to make themselves feel better) human proportion.  We have seen much better sculpts in 15mm and 20mm, so why cannot 28mm?

Our figures are more or less based on the style of the Perry brothers, only slightly bigger to match the size of other metal figures in the market.  Don't think you will notice a big difference between our figures and from other manufacturers when placed on the gaming table.

If you look at the 28mm market right now, many manufacturers had begun to sculpt anatomically correct figures, both plastic and metal, to reflect a change of style because it is just wrong to sculpt these figures incorrectly!

;)

I like the Parry brothers figures very much. They do great work! Their miniatures are a blend of semi-anatomically correct and a gaming look. Still, I know a few gamers that still think their figures are too thin. You can’t please everyone all the time.

Anatomically Correct:
It is important to note that while modeling figures tend to have much better anatomically correct proportions, wargames figures tend to have a bit more girth and oversized proportions because wargames sculptors want to put the emphasis on those parts, but also for other possible reasons like durability. While not a very important aspect, but something that is often overlooked by gamers is how their figures will hold up when handled as well as how are they going to paint up. A gamer will spend a small fortune on their miniature collections, and how the figures will stand up to the treatment of gaming as well as how the figures paint up should be a factor to consider. The latter of course all depends on a person’s painting skill level and/or style of painting because one brand of figure might be better to work with than another for a particular miniature painter.

As mentioned earlier, for some reason gamers dislike anatomically correct miniatures. I even remember a time - a long time ago - when CinC Miniatures made some very nice anatomically correct Napoleonic miniatures. However, they didn’t last long because nobody was buying them. I guess it is because they look too thin compared to other figures, or maybe they were too flimsy for the game table. Regardless, there is a trend for gamers to dislike anatomically correct figures. There has to be reason for this, but I do not know what it is.

Figure Height:
Normally wargaming figures are measured in height, not scale, but scales have begun to be assigned to figure height. More times than I would like to admit I have gotten drawn into a discussion about the proper height of figures. To me, it seems like a lot of gamers have their own opinions and suggestions about what the true size of a figure should be. My goal here is to cast some light on this subject. Now I’m not going to sit here and convey to the reader that I’m all knowing in this area, and that what I know and consider is correct or to be the absolute truth on the matter, but rather, they are my own opinions based on facts, and this is only my attempt to share them with others.

In the past, manufactures of figures tried more or less to produce figures of the same height. This measurement was from the bottom of the feet to the top of the figure’s head. This was actually beneficial for the gamer because unlike now, the availability and selection of figures in the past were very lean to say the least. In some cases, what one figure manufacture did not have another manufacture attempted to produce. Even though in most cases the different companies produced figures that were visually different in detail and design, they were at least very close to being of the same height which of course made them more compatible with each other on the gaming table. This way you did not have the unpleasant appearance of un-natural giants and/or midgets within the ranks of your miniature army formations.

The manufacturing of gaming figures is not regulated by any official office or convention, which means in essence that there is no true standard or guideline to follow. When companies decided to introduce and produce new figures for the gamer they are free to do as pleased. In the beginning however, some manufactures of gaming figures attempted to establish some sort of a standard size. At the time, the most common sizes were 15mm, 20mm, and 25mm figures, and according to some old literature printed up by some of these pioneer manufactures, the height of a figure was supposed to be the measured distance from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head. This of course seemed very reasonable since this only takes into account the height of a standing man and the thickness of the base as well as the headgear is irrelevant. Figures that measure 15mm or 25mm from the bottom of their feet to the top of their heads are what I will consider “True 15mm” or “True 25mm” miniatures.

As time progressed, figures had begun to get taller and taller leading to what is commonly known as the scale creep phenomenon. What started this phenomenon in the first place? The answer is not all that simple, but basically it seems to be the cause and effect for control of the figure market. That is, the trend is more about competition and greed than cooperation and teamwork among the figure manufactures. It seemed that one day a manufacture of figures decided to adjust the measurements of their figures to mean that 15mm or 25mm was the distance between the feet and the eyes, or to some other two obscure points. However, it didn’t stop there! Now it seems that this measurement is from the ankle to the nose or chin, which to me seems a bit ridiculous. What’s next, the distance from the knee to the clavical? The reason for all this was so that a manufacture’s figures would not blend in well with other manufactures. The result of this entire scale creep phenomenon was taller figures, but also a much wider range of sizes of non-compatibility. Personally, I see this to be a potential problem in the miniature gaming community as new comers to the hobby will only get confused and uncomfortable as they explore the details in getting started, and as a result might turn away from this wonderful hobby.

When I started there was a notion of true height, but it wasn’t a standard throughout the industry. Originally true size was measured from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head without measuring the base. In cases were a figure had a shako or other headgear making it hard to measure, it was approximately measured. This of course made figures from different manufactures compatible in height even if the details were very significant.

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #136 on: December 03, 2017, 02:19:32 AM »
I remember figure heights as always being ground to eyes because you could not see the top of the head, especially if said figure was wearing a shako.

I have a large collection of GZG 25mm figures.

elias.tibbs

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #137 on: December 03, 2017, 02:32:38 AM »
I prefer the Perry and Rubicon scale, and I’m a gamer before a modeller.
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
A (Cam)Bridge Too Far - A UK based Bolt Action Tournament

Tracks

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #138 on: December 04, 2017, 09:05:51 PM »
Measuring to the eyes was the start of the scale creep.

Just like when you go to the doctor's office, they measure your height from the bottom of your feet to the top of the head. I suppose that is why back in the days figure height was measured from the bottom of the feet and to the top of the head. The latter was sometimes a best guess because the figure might have headgear, but it was a pretty good guess.

If you look at some older figures from the 70's and even 80's, you will see that they measure 15mm, 20mm, or 25mm from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head (not including headgear). For example, the old Heritage figures (Napoleonic and American Civil War ranges) were true 15mm figures, and the 15mm and 25mm that Minifigs produced were also a true height. Even all of the Scruby Miniatures that were advertised and 15mm, 20mm, or 25mm were of a true height. However, some of the older companies that are still around today like Minifigs have fallen prey to the scale creep phenomenon. Their latest 15mm figures for example measure a true height of 17mm, but they announced they would increase the height of some of their figures lines.

As for 28mm figures, some are true 28mm figures while others are not.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:07:46 PM by Tracks »

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2017, 03:31:12 AM »
I only entered the hobby in 1984 and (as you might guess) live in the UK, so they are brands I had never heard of.

Interesting timeline here:http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html

"20mm" has an interesting history, which is mentioned in passing in the above link. There is a reference to HO (also known as 3.5mm to the foot) as the US figures.

Due to (traditionally) United Kingdom railways having a smaller loading gauge than Continental railways it was not possible to get the mechanism into the 1/87 scale body shells (this version is occasionally disputed, though it is also repeated for N Gauge). The choice was made to use the scale of 4mm to the foot (or 1/76 scale), also known as OO gauge (which is 16.5mm gauge but 4mm to the foot scale - so narrow gauge of four foot one and half inches).

That means that the UK small figures (Airfix branded their figures as HO/OO but were 1/76) were bigger than true HO at 1/87.

A man 20mm tall is about five foot eight inches in HO, but only five foot in OO.

Of course the additional confusion of 1/72 scale (which I guess is the equivalent of US O Gauge scale of 1/48 due to US modellers not wanting to mix measurement systems) which requires a figure between 24 to 25mm to the top of the head.

Model railway wise the next scale is S Gauge at 1/64 scale which traditionally in the UK is thought to be 25mm scale.

I remember the Twilight 2000 figures being tiny compared to the Platoon 20 figures because the former were 1/87.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:41:17 AM by ultravanillasmurf »

Pinky

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2017, 12:01:04 PM »

There are just times that we must make our stance.  In the old days of the garage or home-brew foundries, many figures were sculpted anatomically correct; but the final product (the metal figure) was being distorted due to bad rubber mould castings... they got squeezed and deformed.  Of course, there are many factors that lead to the horrible "gorilla" style (some called them heroic-scale to make themselves feel better) human proportion.  We have seen much better sculpts in 15mm and 20mm, so why cannot 28mm?

Our figures are more or less based on the style of the Perry brothers, only slightly bigger to match the size of other metal figures in the market.  Don't think you will notice a big difference between our figures and from other manufacturers when placed on the gaming table.

If you look at the 28mm market right now, many manufacturers had begun to sculpt anatomically correct figures, both plastic and metal, to reflect a change of style because it is just wrong to sculpt these figures incorrectly!

This all makes sense, but to me your figures aren't always striking the right balance.  The British Army figures in the photos of your plastic fences don't look 'right'.  The uniforms are too close-fitting and the helmets are too small.  I think your designers are still struggling a bit with organic shapes, like soft stowage and clothing.  You're a bit scornful of the "gorilla" style, and I understand what you mean, but there is a reason for it - it has more visual impact (because the eye is drawn to certain aspects of the model), it tends to look more dynamic, and the exaggerated detail paints up better.  I think Rubicon are currently a bit conflicted on whether they are display models or wargaming models, although the scale you've chosen is overwhelmingly a wargaming scale.

Tracks

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - FlaK 36/37 initial drawing 171201
« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2017, 11:07:35 PM »
I have to agree with Pinky in that "The British Army figures in the photos of your plastic fences don't look 'right'."

He also mentions, "- it has more visual impact (because the eye is drawn to certain aspects of the model), it tends to look more dynamic, and the exaggerated detail paints up better."

This is something that the Perry brothers have been experimenting with. On their figures, some of the details are a little exaggerated to catch the eye and to enhance the overall look. They don't over do it like other sculptors, but its a careful balance to get a "look"..

When things get scaled down, sometimes artificial optical aids or adjustments have to be added to a figure. Take for example a professionally painted miniature soldier. The painter doesn't simply paint everything in mono-tone colors. Instead, they add artificial shading and highlights to get a more realistic look. Sometimes this applies to physical details as well. By slightly over exaggerating certain details it can enhance the visual look of a figure. Because wargame figure sculptors want to put the emphasis in their work, you see this more evident in wargame figures than in modeling figures. Modeling figures tend to more anatomically correct with non-protruding details while wargaming figures tend to have oversized proportions and over exaggerated details. IMHO, I think its a fine balance of being precise and adding some exaggeration.

Rubicon Models

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - The LONG Haul... 171215
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2017, 01:02:00 PM »
Finally get all the initial 3D drawings done!  Now have to go through all the details again to confirm correct, then proceed to 3D prototyping!
Like the real gun, the gun can elevate up to an 85-degree angle too!





Enjoy!
;)

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - The LONG Haul... 171215
« Reply #143 on: December 15, 2017, 04:41:57 PM »
Will it be able to swapped between the towed and the deployed cruciform base?

Jimmy_P

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - The LONG Haul... 171215
« Reply #144 on: December 15, 2017, 05:20:39 PM »

Seriously looking forward to this one! Second being able to use both base options too!


elias.tibbs

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - The LONG Haul... 171215
« Reply #145 on: December 15, 2017, 10:13:35 PM »
I can see this selling very well...
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
A (Cam)Bridge Too Far - A UK based Bolt Action Tournament

Rubicon Models

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 171229
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2017, 06:15:36 PM »
Again, emphasising on the possibility of "conversion kits" for our plastic kits...
The merging of two upcoming new kits - Panzer IV -and- 88mm FlaK 36/37 AT Gun - with the addition of a few new parts yielding this new vehicle "88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H".





Enjoy!
;)

Pinky

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 171229
« Reply #147 on: December 30, 2017, 02:52:17 AM »
But what is it?

ripley

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 171229
« Reply #148 on: December 30, 2017, 05:12:38 AM »
IRC it's a one of a kind , Battle of Berlin , we need to get this gun into action , what have you got that will carry it kind of deal . Like the 75mm pak on the Panzer I chassie , its a last ditch effort to hold off the Ruskies . Dragon has one in 1/35 , cool kit . but I could convert one myself . Others of course would probably buy one . Always good to see Rubicon expanding their ideas on WWII vehicles , even if I wouldn't get this one

ultravanillasmurf

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Re: German AA/AT Guns - 88mm FlaK 36 auf PzKpfw IV Ausf H 171229
« Reply #149 on: December 30, 2017, 05:46:09 AM »
I found a couple of photographs of one (one with a command Panzer I of some sort).