Author Topic: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits - 250/7 & 251/2 TS1 Painted 170110  (Read 18919 times)

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2015, 01:03:51 PM »
Cool - a Rubicon SdKfz 251 Ausf C.  Hopefully with the correct (leather) seats, unlike Warlord's.  Good to see you've also omitted the rivets - only a few Ausf Cs were riveted.
Since the interior of the Ausf C and D are very close.  It is sometimes very confusing with historical photo regarding the seats - leather vs wood bench.  We know they were leather to start with, but later switched to wood bench (probably to save resources) that was carried forward to the Ausf D production.  Is this correct?

The Engineer variant looks great.  Will it have new parts?  I like the "Flivo" too - especially the extendable antenna.  That would make a great diorama subject.  And the "Stummel" - one of my favourite variants.
All parts in the Engineer variant (251/7) are of a new design - the bridges, wood planks and support.  We've also included a sPzB 41 (with wheels for offloaded use) with the kit.  Even though taking up a lot of sprue space, we have decided to include two upper hull pieces (Ausf C & D) with the Stummel kit; it will be a pity not to!

A production version of the Kanone 51 on an Ausf C?  We went through this before.  The Ausf C was out of production by the time this mounting for the L/24 was introduced.  As your list indicates, it should be D only.
The modular Kanone 51 is basically sitting on top of the vehicle; therefore it is not our concern regarding placing it on an Ausf C or D.  But historically, it should be D only.


« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:06:18 PM by Rubicon Models »

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2015, 11:36:11 PM »
Since the interior of the Ausf C and D are very close.  It is sometimes very confusing with historical photo regarding the seats - leather vs wood bench.  We know they were leather to start with, but later switched to wood bench (probably to save resources) that was carried forward to the Ausf D production.  Is this correct?

According to the Osprey book on the SdKfz 251 and "Schutzenpanzer", by Uwe Feist, the wooden slat seats were introduced with the Ausf D, as part of the process of simplifying production.  They were far quicker and cheaper to manufacture than the combination of metal tubing, leather and horsehair required for the Ausf C's seats.  I'd suggest it makes sense to provide the leather seats with the Ausf C, as it's another feature that distinguishes it from the Ausf D.

Quote
All parts in the Engineer variant (251/7) are of a new design - the bridges, wood planks and support.  We've also included a sPzB 41 (with wheels for offloaded use) with the kit.  Even though taking up a lot of sprue space, we have decided to include two upper hull pieces (Ausf C & D) with the Stummel kit; it will be a pity not to!

Excellent! 

Incidentally, I also really like the "Flivo" version you've done (Flivos were Luftwaffe forward air-control personnel) - the retractable antenna looks especially cool.  As I mentioned previously, the frame antenna was much more common on the Ausf C.  This version would make a very nice subject for a diorama.  Especially accompanied by some armoured cars (hint hint!).

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2015, 05:35:50 PM »
After sorting out our Q3/15 new releases, we are now focusing on our Q4/15 projects once again!

Here are some prototype images of the SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C...















Enjoy!


Laffe

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
    • The Figure Fanatic Blog
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2015, 08:58:44 PM »
Kudos for making the doors open!  :D

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2015, 09:38:38 PM »
Kudos for making the doors open!  :D

I was thinking the same thing - I love the attention to detail on the doors.

I really don't think the bench seats should be included, as I explained, but whatever...otherwise, everything is looking good.  Any chance you can squeeze some stowage onto the sprue?  Like spare jerrycans etc?   

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2015, 10:05:22 PM »
I really don't think the bench seats should be included, as I explained, but whatever...otherwise, everything is looking good.  Any chance you can squeeze some stowage onto the sprue?  Like spare jerrycans etc?   
Will try to, but we are more inclined to include a driver... (head, body, and arm with driving wheel).


Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2015, 10:33:11 PM »
Just can't resist posting more bits on the SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C and its expansion kits (for both C & D)...

























Enjoy!


Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 01:14:27 PM »
I guess including a driver is a better idea.

Really liking all the extra detail in your expansion kits.  A few minor points/requests:

- the ammo stowage replaced the rear seats in the /2, and in the /7 the rear seats were replaced with engineer equipment.  You seem to have already done some separate rear seats for the /9 version.  Wouldn't it be a good idea to provide an optional set of forward seats as well, so people don't have to chop up the standard seats in order to install the ammo etc?
- I know it's being greedy, but any chance of a bit more radio equipment in the /3?  It would look good if the rest of that right hand seat was covered. 
- Again, it's being greedy (because your /7 already looks great), but any chance of some engineer equipment as well?  It'd just be some boxes etc. stowed on the floor.
- The detail for the /16 is really impressive.  However, the hand-held flamer was not included on the Ausf D version.
- Love the fact that you've done a new hull top for both "Stummel" types!


Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2015, 01:40:05 PM »
I guess including a driver is a better idea.
That's what we think too!  We are also looking into additional plastic crews to man the guns... this will delay the release but think is worthwhile!


- the ammo stowage replaced the rear seats in the /2, and in the /7 the rear seats were replaced with engineer equipment.  You seem to have already done some separate rear seats for the /9 version.  Wouldn't it be a good idea to provide an optional set of forward seats as well, so people don't have to chop up the standard seats in order to install the ammo etc?
The /2 did not have the rear seats replaced.  The Germans simply put a rack on top.  We have photo and 1/35 models to confirm this.  The /7 additional details will depends on sprue space.  We are trying to use the /7 and /2 as space filler to go with other variants as "2-in-1" or "3-in-1" kit.


- I know it's being greedy, but any chance of a bit more radio equipment in the /3?  It would look good if the rest of that right hand seat was covered. 
- Again, it's being greedy (because your /7 already looks great), but any chance of some engineer equipment as well?  It'd just be some boxes etc. stowed on the floor.
We saw historical photos with additional radio equipment on the right hand side front seats.  In most cases, with tables for maps, typewriter, and enigma machine.  Need to discuss with staff on this... as we have already moved onto another project!  This is the same with the /7.


- The detail for the /16 is really impressive.  However, the hand-held flamer was not included on the Ausf D version.
We can't confirm that, at least from our references... the handheld flamer on the Ausf D was there because it was already drawn, so we just left it there for the moment.  We are very proud with the /16 overall design; it is simple enough as an easy built, yet highly detailed and accurate!



Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2015, 02:22:37 PM »
That's what we think too!  We are also looking into additional plastic crews to man the guns... this will delay the release but think is worthwhile!

Definitely - especially if the crew look as good as the digitally sculpted Russian driver you showed us recently!

Quote
The /2 did not have the rear seats replaced.  The Germans simply put a rack on top.  We have photo and 1/35 models to confirm this.  The /7 additional details will depends on sprue space.  We are trying to use the /7 and /2 as space filler to go with other variants as "2-in-1" or "3-in-1" kit.

Some sources show the right hand side rear seat on the /2 replaced with an ammo rack (not both - sorry, should have checked that).  This is how its done on the Dragon kit.  According to Culver and Feists' book, both of the forward seats were removed and remarked with ammo stowage (which makes sense, as you'd think that the seats would interfere with the mortar), but this may have just been the early version.  I can see it's not worth the extra work - it's going to be pretty easy to convert with the components you're going to provide. 

Quote
We saw historical photos with additional radio equipment on the right hand side front seats.  In most cases, with tables for maps, typewriter, and enigma machine.  Need to discuss with staff on this... as we have already moved onto another project!  This is the same with the /7.

Fair enough.  The /3 and /7 already look good.

Quote
We can't confirm that, at least from our references... the handheld flamer on the Ausf D was there because it was already drawn, so we just left it there for the moment.  We are very proud with the /16 overall design; it is simple enough as an easy built, yet highly detailed and accurate!

There doesn't seem to be any uncertainty, and there are no photos of Ausf Ds with the handheld flamethrower storage.

How are you planning to release the expansion sets?  Will they come out as a set of extra sprues, or as a full kit?

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2015, 02:32:14 PM »
How are you planning to release the expansion sets?  Will they come out as a set of extra sprues, or as a full kit?
No final decision yet!  Since we are going to release the Ausf C more or less the same time with the expansion kits, there is no reason to bundle them together... One way is to package everything separate and let the customers choose between an expansion kit with either Ausf C or D; or create multiple packages, which we think is a waste of resources.  Setting the retail price will be one of the crucial factors on how we are going to package them!

Comments?

Pinky

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,251
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2015, 06:41:24 PM »
I think you might be better off selling these upgrades as a complete kit, rather than as separate sprues.  That way, people can build a vehicle straight from the box (I have a feeling that people might be less likely to buy a set that doesn't include the actual vehicle).  Then, when they see all the other cool stuff on the sprues, they'll buy more basic vehicles to build the other variants.  But I don't know if that works from a business perspective. 

If you took this approach, it could work something like this:

- a 3-in-1 set for the Ausf C, which includes the basic vehicle.  This would include the 'Ausf C only' versions (although you'd make it clear on the box that these parts are also suitable for the Ausf D).  Perhaps it could include the /3, the /7 and the /9 "Stummel", since that would probably fill a sprue (especially as it would include an optional upper hull).  I think including the /3 and the "Stummel" will make this a very attractive kit - having either version in the box art would (I think) help sell the kit.

- a second 3-in-1 set for the Ausf D, which might include the /2, the /9 and the /22.  Presumably if this includes the early version of the /9 (again, with an optional upper hull), it would easily fill a sprue.  Maybe market this with the /22 version in the box art, since it's visually striking.   

- sell the /16 as a separate kit, as you have with the Stuka zu Fuss.  Maybe market it as an Ausf C, since Warlord have already put out the Ausf D version (but mention on the box that it's suitable for the Ausf D as well).  As you've mentioned, it could be a popular vehicle with gamers, and yours is going to be better than Warlord's.

Just some suggestions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:04:29 AM by Pinky »

ripley

  • Sergeant
  • ***
  • Posts: 612
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 12:46:51 AM »
I personally would like these upgrade sets to be sold without the base vehicle . So a set for the 251 C and a set for the D . Being a modeler I would rather have the extra bits to up grade or kit bash vehicles both plastic and resin, already in my collection . I have a plastic Puma on hold waiting for your 251/9 D upgrade to turn it into a 234/3 . I really don't need more base kits , I have four 251s now . But if you only release them with the base vehicle I'm sure I can find gamers who I could work out a deal with  :)

Shark in Exile

  • Cadet
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 12:51:39 AM »
I like the idea of both the complete upgrade kits including the vehicle and the upgrade spures sold separately to convert other kits from Warlord or the option to purchase other standard vehicles etc.
In my opinion would increase sales from those who wanted to convert other companies vehicles.

Rubicon Models

  • Administrator
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,601
    • View Profile
Re: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C & Expansion Kits
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 01:25:15 AM »
Thanks for all the input.  Cost sharing is an issue that we need to resolve.  Unlike the Ausf D, the Ausf C is a new kit; other companies had already saturated the market with this variant.  The Ausf C with Expansion Kit bundles will open up that market for us, an important point to consider.  We also have to look at how customers will field their army when playing their games.  Vehicle composition will then become a factor as well.

As a small design studio, our overheads are relatively low; and being able to supplemented income by other OEM jobs, we are quite flexible financially.  Still we needed to make enough money to fund future projects.  Fortunately. we still have a few months to figure this out!  Will explore more as we progress!

BTW, when we designed our plastic kits (in this case, the Ausf C & D), we are using real-life technical data to build our kits; that is, exact scale in terms of angles and measurements (of course, thickness of the armour is not possible). There are possibly some measurement differences between our plastic against a resin kit.  Even when compared with other plastic kits, we do see different assembly approach making conversion a challenging issue.

Even though the Ausf C & D are both designed by our studio <and> basically the same in size and spec, there are technical issues that we needed to resolve to make these expansion kits compatible by sacrificing minor accuracy to our design.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:31:04 AM by Rubicon Models »