Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on December 08, 2014, 06:50:26 pm
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(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Misc%20Images/USTankDestroyersv1_zpsdf612897.jpg)
Which one do you prefer? There are several possibilities:
(1) M10 Wolverine / 17pdr SP Achilles
(2) M10 Wolverine / M36 Jackson
(3) M36 Jackson /17pdr SP Achilles
(4) M18 Hellcat
Vote now or give comments!!
Some Background History:
By far the most common US design was the 3in Gun Motor Carriage M10 (Wolverine), later supplemented by the 90 mm Gun Motor Carriage M36 (Jackson) - both based on the M4 Sherman hull and powertrain - and the 76 mm Gun Motor Carriage M18 (Hellcat), based on a unique hull and powertrain design, with a slight visual resemblance to what was used for the later M24 Chaffee light tank.
The M18 came closest to the US ideal; the vehicle was very fast, small, and mounted a 76 mm gun in a roofless open turret. The M36 Jackson GMC possessed the only American-origin operational gun that could rival the vaunted 88 mm German ordnance, the 90 mm M3 gun, and the M36 remained in service well after World War II.
;)
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Can a multi-tank kit of the m10 and both m36 variants be produced?
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Can a multi-tank kit of the m10 and both m36 variants be produced?
Need to do a parts count when the basic 3D model is done. A tank of this size should be a 3 sprue kit, similar to our existing M4A3 kit. With 2 turrets; yes, it is possible!
;)
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I want the 17 pounder Achilles and don't really care if it's an M10 or M36 with it inside the box. I voted for the M10 because I had to vote for something! ;)
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Voted for M18, pretty vehicle.
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I voted for the M10/Achilles. I think that covers two important vehicles, and you also give both the British and the US players a new tank. I suspect the open-topped turret will require more parts, so providing 2 completely different turrets might be a stretch.
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Can a multi-tank kit of the m10 and both m36 variants be produced?
Need to do a parts count when the basic 3D model is done. A tank of this size should be a 3 sprue kit, similar to our existing M4A3 kit. With 2 turrets; yes, it is possible!
;)
That would be pretty awesome. As far as I'm aware (and it's probably wrong), the only main visible difference between the M10 and M36 was the turret and a few cosmetic things.
That'd be two kits in one. As much as I'd love to have the M18, I think the M10/M36 combi kit makes more sense for you guys at the moment. More potential audience for a single kit = more potential cash flow from a similar budget.
You could potentially put the M36B2 in there too (M36 with a .30cal bow gun), three kits in one. Even better!
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M10 Wolverine/Achilles, please.
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Hellcat is awesome for Bolt Action players!! (http://www.clubvweos.es/foro/images/smilies/babas.gif)
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no hellcat is awesome for Bolt Action American players ;D
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Right...
Hellcat is HELL for all others ;)
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Hellcat !! Hellcat !!
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M10 w/17pdr gun and mantlet please. Oh, Canada!
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I voted for Hellcat. It's cool tank destroyer, it looks very nice and it have interesting rules for Bolt action game. M10 Wolverine is already offered by Warlord Games 8)
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I like you will do a tank destroyer but I would prefer you cover models that do not exist like the m4a3e8 or the jumbo... Or priest... The blitzkrieg miniatures us doing them in resin.
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You should do JUMBO first! NOBODY DO IT! why?! It is BADASS tank! Why you doing only german vechcles? I dont understand and later you say you cant do jumbo or E8 becous it is low on the list.. WTF 5 german tanks 1 US 0 GB 1 soviet ? WHY? Are you nazi?
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You sholud do two boxes: first M18 Hellcat !! It is just MUST DO! second M10 Wolverine /M36 Jackson / Achilles ,becouse Achilles is M10 with diffretn gun!!! So that would be WIN WIN for everybody ! two boxes 4 vechicles! focking awsome idea! dont thank me 8)
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I don't think anyone will. German vehicles sell. Try working on representing a proper arguement for why more US tanks is a good idea rather then insulting the person your trying to convince. As a starting company they need to make kits that will sell, they can't waste time on a Jumbo if it's not going to sell as other kits (and personally I'd like to see a Jumbo).
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maybe with the wolwerine you may reuse the hull of the sherman so you can do it more quickly... in this case i suggest you also include the 17pdr option so it may be interesting for both US and BRIT players... the hellcat is a completely new model (maybe you can build it if you think also to do the m24 that has the same hull) with a careful design you may reuse the hull for both tanks.
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The M 10 used the same drive train as a Sherman but had a different body . If the lower body , wheels and track were on one spure it could be used on various M4 type vehicles . The M 18 Hellcat and M 24 Chaffee were built by different companies , Buick and Cadillac / Massey-Harris and although they look the same the Chaffee is about 3 feet shorter and had different width tracks . So not really a good 2 in 1 kit . The M 10 on the other hand was used by the US , Brits , Canadians , Poles , Free French and Russians , as well as the Commonwealth forces getting the up gunned Achilles version . The Achilles version had a different style turret with a longer set of rear counter weights (duck bill shaped ) to off set the heavier gun . The original M 10 had a 5 sided turret with triangular shaped weights , but it seems the same gun mantlet was used on both types . As a side note , the racks on the hull side of the M 10 were for the track groucers , a sort of stud for tank tracks ( also carried by Shermans , in the rear hull , M3 Lee / Grants & M7 Priests in boxes on the hull roof and glasis plate , and M5 Stuarts & M8 HMC on the turret sides / galsis plate ) . These were issued to tanks that had the rubber pad track , if all steel track was on the vehicle , the racks were empty or removed .
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The M 10 used the same drive train as a Sherman but had a different body . If the lower body , wheels and track were on one spure it could be used on various M4 type vehicles . The M 18 Hellcat and M 24 Chaffee were built by different companies , Buick and Cadillac / Massey-Harris and although they look the same the Chaffee is about 3 feet shorter and had different width tracks . So not really a good 2 in 1 kit . The M 10 on the other hand was used by the US , Brits , Canadians , Poles , Free French and Russians , as well as the Commonwealth forces getting the up gunned Achilles version . The Achilles version had a different style turret with a longer set of rear counter weights (duck bill shaped ) to off set the heavier gun.
Not quite - most Achilles were modifications of the later production version of the M10 with a revised turret and "duckbill" counterweights (when re-armed with the 17pdr they were designated Achilles IIC). Fitting the 17pdr did not require any external changes to the turret, but the gun itself was fitted with counterweights, and the internal stowage arrangements (and, obviously, gun mount) were different. So, an M10/Achilles kit would presumably be based on the later version of the M10. Note that the late version lacked the bolts on the hull side.
But you've otherwise listed a lot of reasons why the M10/Achilles would be a great kit. Which is why I voted for it earlier.
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The M10 was built on the M4A2 chassis ( twin GM diesels ) , and the M10A1 on the M4A3 chassis ( V8 Ford ) , its really hard to tell the hulls apart except for the grills on the engine deck and the rear engine access doors , usually both hidden by kit on the rear deck and exhaust grills on the rear . For some reason the extra bolt on armor was never fitted and the mounting bosses on the turret and hull sides deleted in later production , although the ones on the front hull plate could still be found right through the war . Actually the Achilles was built on both chassis , M10 ( Mk 1C ) and M10A1 ( Mk IIC ), but always with duck bill turret . Have also seen pictures of M 10 early turret without weights , but might have been pre production / test vehicle . Non of the books I have explain the change in turrets or give them a designation , the duck bill almost looks like a Jackson turret with some of the rear weights carved away to balance the 17pdr . As the Jackson was first produced in April 44 and the Achilles in late 44 maybe this is the case . Or maybe not :-\ I do think this would be a great kit for Rubicon to produce , all we need is some one to give us a gun crew with a multi versions of heads ;D
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The M10 turret was changed because the initial version was unbalanced and unsatisfactory. To be clear, the later version of the turret saw service with the US Army as well; it was not designed specifically for the Achilles.
My sources are contradictory on whether the British actually fielded the M10A1 version of the Achilles; I suspect they didn't. As you say, the M10 and M10A1 are hard to tell apart in photos.
I hope Rubicon can start including crew figures in the near future. I notice Warlord have started doing this. Of course, ideally Rubicon's figures would be better than Warlord's (it's a shame they can't get the Perrys to do them!), but I'm sure it's not easy finding sculptors.
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I've only seen 17 pdrs in the duck bill turret , no 3 inch guns , but with over 6000 M10 types built, never say never . I know the Brits had official designations for vehicles produced that they never received via lend lease , so the 17 pdr M10A1 could be one of those as the Ford V8 gas engine from the M4A3 Sherman on which the vehicle was based was a production type favoured for use by the US Army . I must admit my collection of US tank books is slim being more interested in T-34s and KVs as well as Cromwells . And yes it would be nice to have some plastic crew figures,. The first couple of BA/ Italeri kits had no plastic figures but the Panzer IV and Puma do have a crew figure . Hopefully a full crew figure set is on the drawing board , Italeri do have them in larger scales so maybe they can CAD them down to 1/56 . I've converted some BA Brits for my BA Sherman and Cromwell but really would like dedicated crew figure sets . As well , more open hatches to make adding crews easier . The best I've done so far is to open the loader and driver hatches on BA's T-34/85 .
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The turret with "duckbill' counterweights was produced from June 1943, and about 3,200 were built. This version didn't have a separate designation. Below are a couple of photos of them in US service from Hunnicutt's book on the Sherman - they became quite common. The Achilles was based on this variant. The British converted a few of the initial M10 variant into Achilles (Achilles IC), but these don't seem to have seen active service.
I've checked, and it seems that all of the M10A1s built were initially retained in the US, then they were converted into M36s. As you say, the US Army favoured the M4A3 variant of the M4.
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M18 Hellcat would be AMAZING for Bolt Action! Although, I'd love to see all of these, but if I only get to choose one, it's the Hellcat for sure.
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M18 but with options to make Armored Utility Vehicle M39
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/M39-Armored-Utility-Vehicle-1.jpg)
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well thats sort of hard. Maybe i'll vote for the M18 because i prefer its looks, never liked how the M10 looks, but the later one has options for other variants. If i vote for the later it will be the M10+17pdr version.
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I voted the Hellcat. A nice mod for the model would be the 90mm M36 turret for the Hellcat; they made at least one.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/fm1j4z.jpg)
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I voted the Hellcat. A nice mod for the model would be the 90mm M36 turret for the Hellcat; they made at least one.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/fm1j4z.jpg)
several examples are photographed in 1945!
that said I'm sure rule systems just allow for the 76mm version so the 90mm wouod be a waste of time from that point of view
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It's worth bearing in mind that Rubicon make plastic kits, which involve a significant cost in terms of design, mould production etc. Once a kit goes into production, the sprues are largely 'set in stone'. So they need to focus on the more 'useful' vehicles, to justify the production costs (unlike a resin manufacturer, which can knock out components for more obscure variants fairly easily). We'd all love to see certain vehicles in kit form (I'd be overjoyed to see some early war British armour, for instance), but we have to be realistic.
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Ive just voted for the 17pdr M10 Achilles as the M10 was used by all allied nations and as such is likely to sell more that the M18.
Ive also just completed one of the Warlord resin models that was poorly cast and did not go together well. The proportions also dont look right.
I do like the detailed turret interior and the fact that it has a crew though. It does not look so bad now it is painted but am sure Rubicon could do it better.
I have done a number of the new Warlord plastics and dont rate them tbh (Cromwell & Universal Carriers).
Having said that, i would buy one from Rubicon in a heartbeat.
I do think that crew figures and stowage are imortant considerations as well.
BTW - I am now on the lookout for some British Shermans rather than the USA only M4A3 variant that you do. Have you any plans to do an M4A2 (Sherman lll). This was used by USA Marines as well as Lend lease to Britain & Russia. Obviously would need 2 x turrets and 3 different buns but you have done those already.
Cheers
Tim
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I would absolutely buy a Wolverine/Achilles kit if one was produced. I need Wolverines for Italy and the Achilles for NW Europe, if the kit could build up both turrets and allow me to swap that would save buy two different (yet almost identical) vehicles.