Rubicon Models

Rubicon Models => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on August 09, 2017, 08:16:35 pm

Title: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 09, 2017, 08:16:35 pm
Most of you already know we are redoing some of the moulds to improve the overall quality of each kit.  These changes might not be reflected on our current kits on the market until a later date, but we are continuing to do so as we see fit.

While working on the Panther tracks, we had found an interesting problem - which side is up and which side is down?

After searching on the net and reading reference books for more historical data and pictures; seems like both are true... any comments from our b&n counters?


(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/3466c428-1d51-43dc-8705-f5af96c500eb_zpsdhwbe7ix.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/99f3068f-f68c-4a3a-b72c-5d6b8070596b_zps6oiedizx.jpg)

;)
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Pinky on August 09, 2017, 11:26:13 pm
It's confusing isn't it.  Apparently it had left and right handed tracks.  Here's Panther undergoing trials which presumably has them on the right way.

(https://s2.postimg.org/gj09bnlyd/IMG_0110.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/gj09bnlyd/)
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 09, 2017, 11:46:02 pm
Apparently it had left and right handed tracks.

Really? That explains all the confusing track photos. However, there were some with the same track patterns on both sides!
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Pinky on August 10, 2017, 01:40:03 am
Maybe if they were short of the right tracks they fitted them the other way around.

I'm not 100% sure of this, and will check other references. 
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 10, 2017, 02:15:35 am
From several sources, there were 4 different track designs (or patterns) being used by the Panther throughout Ausf D, A, and then G.  Might be a mix of track links for left and right side during field repairs.  Going to dig into this deeper!
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: tyroflyer on August 10, 2017, 07:33:20 am
I know there were numerous different tracks on earlier panzers. There is an excellent u tube video by Adam Mann about that subject. Wouldn't surprise me if Panther tracks also varied. In any event it shows Rubicon's attention to detail we have come to expect.
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: ripley on August 10, 2017, 08:23:56 am
Pzr III and IV had left and right handed track as well . IRC its something to do with a inset for the head of the track pin on one side and a recess for the locking nut on the other side . Some early  Tiger I s had the same style track on both sides , you can see the traction cleats on the track links , one side v and the other side ^. They should have developed tracks like the Sherman , they fit either side and with all other M3 / M4 style track links ( not the E8 of course , way different ) The T-34 never even had locking nuts , the pins went in from the inside and a wedge shaped device by the drive sprocket pushed the head  loose pin back flush  ::) .
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Pinky on August 10, 2017, 10:01:16 am
From several sources, there were 4 different track designs (or patterns) being used by the Panther throughout Ausf D, A, and then G.  Might be a mix of track links for left and right side during field repairs.  Going to dig into this deeper!

I could only find references to 2 different types; during production they added the additional 'chevrons' to improve traction.  There were also ice cleats that could be attached.

While you're looking at the Panther, could you tweak the fit of the engine deck where it meets the rear hull wall?  There is a gap there which is hard to avoid.  It'd also be good if you could improve the way the nose assembles, so that the interlocking armour effect is better defined.  And maybe refine the gun barrel, so it's a bit thicker and properly circular.  There are a few other points, which would improve the accuracy of the Ausf D in particular. 
Title: Re: 280014 / 280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Project reopened 170809
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 11, 2017, 02:28:02 pm
While you're looking at the Panther, could you tweak the fit of the engine deck where it meets the rear hull wall?  There is a gap there which is hard to avoid.  It'd also be good if you could improve the way the nose assembles, so that the interlocking armour effect is better defined.  And maybe refine the gun barrel, so it's a bit thicker and properly circular.  There are a few other points, which would improve the accuracy of the Ausf D in particular. 

We are not going to redo the Panther at this point, just minor tweak to the tracks.  If we are to make changes as you suggested, the alternations are worth redoing a new tank (or moulds).


This is the updated track links:
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20Tracks%20180810-1_zpszzigozvr.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear Exhausts 170812
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 12, 2017, 03:09:34 pm
Besides changes made to the Panther track links, we are adding various rear exhaust options too!
Hope you like them all!  ;)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20Exhausts%20180811-1_zps4yopyr2l.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear Exhausts 170812
Post by: Ballardian on August 12, 2017, 11:07:45 pm
 Very nice, I like the choice of Flamvernichters - & putting individual track waffle detail on, even if it's only the front makes the world of difference.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear Exhausts 170812
Post by: ripley on August 12, 2017, 11:10:20 pm
The Panther exhausts could be a separate detail kit all on their own  ;D . Some Panthers had the extra twin pipes on the right exhaust , here's a picture of the Munster Panther A taken from the Squadron /Signal book . No idea how many had this set up
(https://s16.postimg.org/aar04tn7l/IMG_20170812_090035686.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/aar04tn7l/)
Really like the up dated details your planning on adding when you re tool the kit .
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear View 170813
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 13, 2017, 11:39:35 am
The "tail" of three panthers...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20Rears%20180813-1_zpsqfjsiypc.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear View 170813
Post by: Pinky on August 13, 2017, 01:43:27 pm
Nice stuff.  But consider whether it's worth putting this much effort into this aspect of the kit when there are other (relatively minor) inaccuracies that are arguably more in need of attention.  Are these going to be on an extra sprue or are you revising an existing sprue?  Cos the gun barrel is on the same sprue as the tracks...
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear View 170813
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 13, 2017, 05:19:28 pm
Nice stuff.  But consider whether it's worth putting this much effort into this aspect of the kit when there are other (relatively minor) inaccuracies that are arguably more in need of attention.  Are these going to be on an extra sprue or are you revising an existing sprue?  Cos the gun barrel is on the same sprue as the tracks...

@Pinky - What do you think?  The truth is out there...  ;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear View 170813
Post by: ripley on August 13, 2017, 10:04:12 pm
Don't forget the D and early A had the jack mounted under the exhausts
(https://s17.postimg.org/58nrnu6sb/i-_N9_RVt_VM-_M.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/58nrnu6sb/)
Of course you probably know that and are just showing the different exhausts on existing cad  :-[
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G - Rear View 170813
Post by: Rubicon Models on August 13, 2017, 10:13:49 pm
Don't forget the D and early A had the jack mounted under the exhausts

The jack design is in such a way you can mount it horizontally or vertically on the designated area.  So no worries.  ;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Rubicon Models on January 23, 2018, 03:24:11 pm
With the release of TS1 sprue for the Jagdpanther, our existing Panther kits (280014 & 280015) also benefit from the new tooling...

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-01_zpstlibayyg.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-02_zpsk0cp03km.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-03_zps2flrmfgx.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-04_zps7tyotqin.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-05_zpsoykgneie.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-06_zpsa4wlbnps.jpg)

(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/Panther%20NEW%20180122-07_zpswgymf2vq.jpg)

Enjoy!
;)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 23, 2018, 04:29:23 pm
Nice.

Will there be a change to the box to indicate the revised sprue?
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Tracks on January 23, 2018, 06:00:37 pm
"Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling"
This is great and all, but I already have the other Rubicon Models (RM) Panther kits. And they are very good kits. Yes, I read the comments and stuff on the various threads on the RM forum.
(http://www.rubiconmodels.com/images/product/s280015%20Panther%20G20150819130303.jpg)
(http://www.rubiconmodels.com/images/product/s280014%20Panther%20D20150819130329.jpg)
Again, we already have these nice kits.

Instead of spending time and resources on something old, I would like to see something new instead. I can't believe I am the only one that feels this way, but maybe I am. Also, there are so many plastic Panthers kits (RM and WLG) available to the modeler/gamer, that it makes me wonder if going this route is a good idea. Would they sell well? I do not think so.

You know, what we don't have available in plastic are things like:
SdKfz 10 Halftrack
M3 Medium Tank (Lee/Grant)
M24 Light Tank
Matilda II, III, IV

...and so on
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Pinky on January 23, 2018, 06:28:13 pm
It looks as though Rubicon have just designed one of the Jagdpanther sprues so it's common to the Panthers.  So they haven't "re-tooled" the Panther kits as such.  I may be wrong, but that's how I understand it.  It's a bit like the sort of thing Dragon have always done.  Presumably, this means the Panther kits will include this extra sprue, and new instructions to explain which parts should be substituted.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: tyroflyer on January 23, 2018, 06:59:30 pm
Although I would personally prefer to see the Matilda than a revamped Panther I think Rubicon are doing the right thing here. Opportunities to upgrade kits should be taken. The fact some of us already have an older version shouldn't preclude someone else benefiting from the latest technology/research or whatever.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 23, 2018, 07:59:32 pm
Following on from Pinky's comment, we had asked if it was possible to build from the existing Panther kit core a Jagdpanther, reusing the existing Panther components. Our Gracious Hosts went away and designed the Jagdpanther in such a way that one of the sprues could provide improvements to the existing Panther kit.

As Pinky says, they have not redesigned the Panther, the upgrade is a bonus.

Though I have two Warlord Panthers and one Rubicon one (must finish painting that), I am glad future purchasers of Rubicon Panthers will get the revised sprue. I might even build Cuckoo, to fill in until I get a plastic Comet.

Rubicon should be applauded for their upgrade policy - even when their existing kits (M4A3) are reasonable, they have replaced them with better ones (M4A3/E8).
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: ripley on January 23, 2018, 09:32:08 pm
Well done Rubicon . Hopefully the next production run of Panther tanks will have this sprue included . Yea its  bit of a bummer if you've already got an older kit , but how would you take it all apart to replace the pieces any way  ?  Then again if you used the wrong type of glue it should pop apart almost by itself  ::)
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 23, 2018, 09:48:41 pm
I dropped my T34/76 on the floor and nothing fell off.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Ballardian on January 24, 2018, 12:02:33 am

 Excellent stuff, it's good to see the older models getting entirely logical 'upgrades' as bits from other vehicles based on the same chassis appear. Very pleased to see the more detailed tracks & the multiple exhaust types (wish I'd had the larger Flammvernichter to hand for a bunch of recent projects) plus the new barrel is a significant improvement, (I'd also thought 'Cuckoo' would be a fun modelloing project).
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: elias.tibbs on January 24, 2018, 01:39:13 am
Tracks, it is very rare for a model company to go back and fix something that they or their customers weren’t happy about.

Rubicon have proved multiple times (Sherman, T34, panzer 4, panzer 3, panther) that they’re willing to go back and either start again (Sherman, panzer 4)  or just change small bits of the frame (t34, panther).

I applaud their efforts in this and their openness on kit development and although I also would like to see more kits, I also understand their need to go back and revisit things with new techniques.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: Tracks on January 24, 2018, 06:53:26 pm
I applaud their efforts in this and their openness on kit development and although I also would like to see more kits, I also understand their need to go back and revisit things with new techniques.

I agree, and I too applauder their efforts and their openness. Do not get me wrong, I'm not against this new "Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling" project. I fully support it. However, at the same time I wonder if this will delay releases of any new great kits that RM are going to produce. In short, I would prefer seeing a new kit like a SdKfz 10 Halftrack or something then a revisited Panther.

I guess I might be somewhat bias because I already have their current Panther kits, and I do not see myself buying the new "revisited" Panther kit. Probably because I'm not that much of a perfectionist when it comes to gaming models.
Title: Re: 280014/280015 Panther Ausf A/D/G Revisited - New Tooling 180123
Post by: ultravanillasmurf on January 24, 2018, 07:34:30 pm
From what I understand, the bottlenecks are the manufacturing of moulds, the "new" Panther sprue is part of the Jagdpanther sprue set so is "free" in terms of mould manufacture time (though it will have effects on mould life as it is doing double duty).

Design wise, it would have added a bit of time, but not much (the Jagdpanther being based on the Panther probably saved more time). The joys of CAD/CAM combined with 3D printing.