Rubicon Models
Rubicon Models => Wish Lists => Topic started by: Rubicon Models on April 19, 2015, 07:58:47 pm
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We are looking at our current M4A3 Sherman, and is reviewing the possibility (somehow) to value-add extra variants to it... plus fixing some of the issues on the existing sprue!
There are several possibilities:
- M4A3E2 Jumbo
- M36B1
What else is there?
Please note, this is not a definitely project, just some brainwashing!
;)
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Tank Recovery Vehicle M32B3 based on M4A3 - would need dummy turret , A- frame crane , tow bars etc , probably too much work . But a sand bag add on armor set or the deep wading trucking used on D Day might be a lower piece count add on
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But a sand bag add on armor set or the deep wading trucking used on D Day might be a lower piece count add on
Rubicon's M3A3 is a late version - they didn't come ashore on D-Day. A sandbar armour set would be nice, but would need a lot of parts to do properly.
My vote would be for the Jumbo. That would require a new turret, additional armour for the hull sides and glacis, and tracks with extended end connectors (all Jumbos had them). Again, quite a lot of parts.
The issues with the current M3A3 could be fixed by replacing the turret bustle underside piece, making the bustle more rounder, replacing the mantlet with a larger one, and re-doing the cupola (mostly the hatch). If you were going all the way, you'd also fix the exhaust vent and provide a chunkier .50 cal.
Approaching it from another direction, what if you provided optional parts to build a late M4A2? They were used by the Marines and the Soviets. It would only require an alternative hull (or, if you re-did the hull with a separate engine deck, optional engine decks), and optional rear hulls. Everything else (including the 76mm turret) would be usable for both the M4A2 and the M4A3.
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Are you sure about none ashore on D-Day ? The Large Hatch 75mm M4A3 was manufactured by Fisher starting in Feb 44 , the LH 76mm by Chrysler in Mar 44 . Some should have come ashore during the invasion . Most pictures in the older books I have are rather vague as to type of Sherman on the beaches ( not to mention even correctly identifying the beach ::)) , never mind having great black and white photos so identifying features can be spotted .
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Are you sure about none ashore on D-Day ? The Large Hatch 75mm M4A3 was manufactured by Fisher starting in Feb 44 , the LH 76mm by Chrysler in Mar 44 . Some should have come ashore during the invasion . Most pictures in the older books I have are rather vague as to type of Sherman on the beaches ( not to mention even correctly identifying the beach ::)) , never mind having great black and white photos so identifying features can be spotted .
The tanks that went ashore with wading trunks on D-Day were M4s. In fact, virtually all of the tanks used by the US Army in the Normandy fighting were (mid-production) M4s and M4A1s. The 'large hatch' hull first appeared in service on M4 105mm-armed tanks, and these were around in June 1944. M4A3s didn't begin to replace the other types in US service until August 1944. The later M4A3W (i.e. the 'large hatch' type) didn't appear until around September/October 1944. It took several months for tanks to get from the production lines in the US to the battlefield in Europe.
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sandbags are already available for the m4a3 75mm:-
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/sandsmodels/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6765_1.jpg) (http://s513.photobucket.com/user/sandsmodels/media/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6765_1.jpg.html)
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These look very nice. Who makes them?
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S&S models http://sandsmodelsshop.com/product-category/28mm-160th-ww2/
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thanks spinfire,
got a load of 1/56th conversions planned 8)
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Anytime Shaun ^_^
So would this theoretical kit be a replacement for the existing? Or an additional kit with more options like the pioneer half track? Or both?
The only thing I could think of that could be added are things like the crab flail or dozer blade, but I think they were more commonly fitted to the A1? Or the waders, but I think they were more commonly fitted to the A2
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spinfire
all of our planned conversions would be just simple add on kits.
we already make the m1 dozer blade and this can be fitted to any m3 or m4.
the british however said the m4 and m4a1 were useless as tank dozers due to the aircraft sourced engine, while the m4a2 diesels were preferred by one unit and the next liked the multi engine m4a4?
I think crab flail is a very good idea, will look into it.
here is the m1 dozer test fitted to a jtfm m4a4.
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/sandsmodels/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6269.jpg) (http://s513.photobucket.com/user/sandsmodels/media/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6269.jpg.html)
and on it's own:-
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/sandsmodels/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6272.jpg) (http://s513.photobucket.com/user/sandsmodels/media/28mm%20ww2/DSCN6272.jpg.html)
I am sure it would fit the rubicon m4a3 just as well.
hope that helps
shaun
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Tank Recovery Vehicle M32B3 based on M4A3 - would need dummy turret , A- frame crane , tow bars etc , probably too much work . But a sand bag add on armor set or the deep wading trucking used on D Day might be a lower piece count add on
Great ideas! The Jumbo would be greatly appreciated. The Deep Wading kit would be useful on the M4 or M4A1; not the M4A3. These were not present on the D-Day Landings.
Still waiting for the M4A1...
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Nice . But its a M4A5 Grizzly, check out the 17 tooth sprocket ( Sherman had 13 ) and the Canadian dry-pin track ( CDP ) . Easy mistake as the cast body is based on the M4A1 but with thicker cast hull ( 75mm vs 51mm on the Sherman ) . Only about 180 M4A5s made and were used a training vehicles so most came through the war intact . In fact a few show up in The Band of Brothers episode when Bull gets trapped in the drainage ditch .
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Nice . But its a M4A5 Grizzly, check out the 17 tooth sprocket ( Sherman had 13 ) and the Canadian dry-pin track ( CDP ) . Easy mistake as the cast body is based on the M4A1 but with thicker cast hull ( 75mm vs 51mm on the Sherman ) . Only about 180 M4A5s made and were used a training vehicles so most came through the war intact . In fact a few show up in The Band of Brothers episode when Bull gets trapped in the drainage ditch .
I stand corrected. Here's what I want:
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Or
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or...This. Early M4A1 with Riveted Transmission, early M34 Mantlet and later Bogie system.
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Here's the M4A1 version that I want:
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I think that with some clever design, Rubicon could do a kit that built the early M4A1 or the late (76mm armed) version. That would give them a chance to rectify the 76mm turret, as well as providing a very useful model of the Sherman.
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I would like that model of Sherman as well
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Here's the M4A1 version that I want:
Early version; notice the M3 Bogie system. Also the Track skirts and M34 Mantlet.
The Hull could be the platform to accommodate the M4 and M3 Bogie system.
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This is the version I'd like to see most.
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I realised the M4A1 in the photo I posted is a very early type - it wouldn't be practical to have it as an option in the same kit as a late version - there'd be almost no common parts at all!
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The M4 Sherman with its numerous variants are sometime very confusing, particularly with so many field modifications and repairs. Based on publications from noted authors David Doyle and Rob Ervin, one popular classification is by means of hull hatch configuration. Namely, "small hatch" that swing open parallel to the hull sides and hinged at two points, and "large hatch" that when open are not parallel to the hull sides and with a single hinge point. Of note, the "large hatch" is of a later design.
On the M4A1, early hull had a 60° glacis, and late hull had a 47° glacis. The first production M4A1, with rare exceptions, do not appear to have seen combat in US service, remaining stateside instead for training purposes. Early production tanks started to see service from early 43 in Tunisia. The "large hatch" version began production in January 44 with 76mm gun - these M4A1 tanks were first issued to troops for the breakout operation from the Normandy beachheads in July 44. They became more common with armoured divisions as the European battles continued into the fall and winter of 44-45.
To do a M4A1, we needed to decide to do either the "small hatch" or the "large hatch" version BEFORE we even discuss what turret or gun to go with it... any comments?
;)
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The first production M4A1, with rare exceptions, do not appear to have seen combat in US service, remaining stateside instead for training purposes. Early production tanks started to see service from early 43 in Tunisia. The "large hatch" version began production in January 44 with 76mm gun - these M4A1 tanks were first issued to troops for the breakout operation from the Normandy beachheads in July 44. They became more common with armoured divisions as the European battles continued into the fall and winter of 44-45.
The first production batch of M4A1s did see service, both with the US Army and the British Army. Many of the tanks of the US 1st Armoured Division knocked out in large numbers in the initial stages of the Kasserine Pass debacle were very early M4A1s, with M3-style bogies and other early features (including riveted hulls, 3-piece transmission covers and blanked-off exhaust ports). Below is a photo of one of the wrecks - they were lovingly photographed by German propaganda photographers soon after the battles. The British also used these very early types, the first batch having been re-directed by Roosevelt from the US 2nd Armoured Division in time for Alamein. The British M4A1s were modified by adding sand shields and blanket boxes.
If you do a 'large hatch' M4A1, then it's basically just going to be a 76mm Sherman. You could include parts for the very later HVSS suspension, but HVSS M4A1s were pretty rare (people who want to model Israeli Shermans would be happy though). There is photographic evidence that a small number of 'large hatch' M4A1s had 75mm turrets (the photos are all of DD tanks, however) but this wouldn't really justify including a 75mm turret. ESCI's original 1/72 scale M4A1 depicted this rare variant.
A 'small hatch' M4A1 could include parts to depict an early version, as used by the British and US in North Africa and Italy, as well as the later version which saw service from 1943 through the Normandy campaign. You'd need to include two different sets of tracks, plus different mantlets and applique armour - and, for the British version, sand shields and a blanket box.
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This had been a fun discussion that had evolved from our initial discussion to include some extra variants for the M4A3 to an in-depth look for a new M4A1 kit. With our current schedule in full capacity, this will still take some time to get the M4A1 into our production queue... From various forum members, this is a summary of what you would expect to see from a new M4A1 kit:
- a "small hatch" M4A1 to depict an early version of the tank used by the British and US in North Africa and Italy
- extra parts to build a later version which saw service from 1943 through the Normandy campaign
- two different sets of tracks and suspension (?)
- different mantlets and applique armour
- track skirts and a blanket box for the British version
Really doubt if all these will fit into three standard sprues, still too early to say though...
Any more comments?
;)
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It may be a lot to fit onto three sprues. You could put items that would be interchangeable , like suspension/track units , transmission covers , rear and lower hulls on one sprue, and upper hulls and turrets that are unique to each variation on another .
You could always make three different kits, instead of trying to fit all three variations in one box
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It may be a lot to fit onto three sprues. You could put items that would be interchangeable , like suspension/track units , transmission covers , rear and lower hulls on one sprue, and upper hulls and turrets that are unique to each variation on another .
You could always make three different kits, instead of trying to fit all three variations in one box
That's what we have been doing with our latest kits. The M4A1 will be of no exception if it goes into production. Just give us some time to finish our scheduled projects on hand... Will still need time to do more research on the M4A1 details and various configurations!
;)
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I would like to thank you, Rubicon, for being so close to the Customer. It shows that you do care and are willing to get it 'Right". You have me as a loyal Customer always.
The M4A1 was used throughout the war by the Americans. Yes, there were many modifications and Upgrades. However, at the core, the distinct rounded Hull is what we're striving to achieve.
Variations come in the following:
Early Transmission Case (Cast vs. Welded)
Early M3 Bogie vs. M4 Bogie system
Early M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm)
Thank you for the considerations.
Respectfully,
Mike
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Variations come in the following:
Early Transmission Case (Cast vs. Welded)
Early M3 Bogie vs. M4 Bogie system
Early M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm)
Spent the whole afternoon today sitting down at our small study room reading all available literature about the M4A1. We have concluded the following:
Transmission Case - Cast vs Welded: Possible!
M3 vs M4 Bogie System (with tracks): Possible!
M34 vs M34A1 Mantlet (75mm): Possible!
Applique Armour: Possible!
Track Skirts & Blanket Box (for British version): Possible!
Extra parts to build a later version (from 1943 through the Normandy Campaign): Still in research!
At this point, we cannot find any info on the "small hatch" version being used during the Normandy Campaign. If so, what was the configuration? Probably with a welded transmission case, M4 Bogie system, applique armour, and a M34A1 (75mm) mantlet (or) with a new turret and a 76mm gun? Any input on this?
Anyway, we might be able to fit everything into 3 standard sprues (without extra turret)...
;)
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This is the version I'd like to see most.
The scale drawing in this earlier post is the small hatch version that would have seen action from late in North Africa up until the end of the war. The turret with the 76mm gun would have been on the large hatch cast hull
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Here is the M4A1 76mm
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Period shot...
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[At this point, we cannot find any info on the "small hatch" version being used during the Normandy Campaign. If so, what was the configuration? Probably with a welded transmission case, M4 Bogie system, applique armour, and a M34A1 (75mm) mantlet (or) with a new turret and a 76mm gun? Any input on this?
What reference material are you looking at? The 'small hatch' M4A1 was in service with both the US Army and the British Army in Normandy - in fact the US Army was only fielding the M4 and the M4A1 at that stage. There are many photos of 'small hatch' M4A1s in Normandy available. Below is a typical Normandy-period 'small hatch' M4A1. It has all the features you describe, plus a Cullin hedgerow device.
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Pinky, not that we do not have info for the late war M4A1, just not enough detail references to the tank itself... type of variants on turrets, guns, mantlets... only historical photos, and not enough line drawings! Need to search the web or online book store for more info.
;)
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You've got the Squadron/Signal book - you posted drawings from it in another thread. The late M4A1 is the version that predominantly appeared in Normandy. The Hunnicutt book on the Sherman is also full of useful drawings and detail photos.
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Mantlet
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So dragging this topic back on topic..
How about going really left field and including parts for a T34 Calliope