Author Topic: The Panzer IV Digital Library - PzIV Ausf H Painted 190816  (Read 189628 times)

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #315 on: May 28, 2018, 05:01:33 pm »
Sounds very promising.

Tracks

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #316 on: May 28, 2018, 06:43:21 pm »
I will already make this prediction. That is, the Panzer IV.D will be the most popular kit. Not because more Ds were produced than the A, B, C, and E, but the D also saw combat in Poland 1939, France 1940, Soviet Union 1941, and North Africa. Also, the D is depicted as one of the primary early war Panzer IVs in many board and miniature games.

If I had to only pick one early Panzer IV to make into a model kit, I would choose the D/E over the A, B, or C. To make a long story short, I think Rubicon's choice of 3 (listed above) is a good for most modellers and gamers. Rated from one to five, with five being best choice, I would say:
 :) :) :) :) :) (1) Panzer IV Ausf D/E
 :) :) :) (2) Panzer IV Ausf F1/F2/G/H
 :) (3) Panzer IV Ausf J

Correction [Edit]:
The Panzer IV Ausf D did not see action in 1939 during the invasion of Poland, so that has been crossed out in the above paragraph.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 05:46:48 pm by Tracks »

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #317 on: May 28, 2018, 07:03:09 pm »
Tracks. I'm sure you are wrong about Poland. I don't think games are much of a reference source.

Pinky

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #318 on: May 28, 2018, 08:47:46 pm »
According to my sources, production of the Ausf D began in September or October 1939, which is too late to have participated in  the Polish campaign.  So it didn't see active service until the invasion of France.  However, only the most pedantic war gamer would have a problem with Ausf Ds appearing in a Polish campaign German force (although it did have slightly better armour than the earlier versions).  The Ausf D may have missed Poland, but it served in France, the Balkans, North Africa and Russia.

I would bet that the most popular Panzer IV kit will  be the Ausf J.  Late war Panzers are the Space Marines of WW2 gaming.  But I'll definitely be picking up the kits of the earlier versions.

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #319 on: May 28, 2018, 09:05:35 pm »
I have a couple of sources that nominate Ausf D production commencing in October 1939. One has the following sentence 'Krupp continued to turn out PzKpfw IV at a strangely lethargic pace: none in September, 20 in October, 11 in November, 14 in December. I found a Wikipedia entry that also nominates 45 as the quantity of Pz IV's produced between the commencement of hostilities and the end of 1939.

My preferred rule set is Chain of Command. In it the lack of a hull mounted machine gun in the Ausf C is a distinctive and important feature. I can't comment on Bolt Action.

 

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #320 on: May 28, 2018, 10:06:13 pm »
I can't see it being cost effective for Rubicon to produce every version of every tank , no matter how much we would like them to . The gamers I know really don't mind proxying vehicles if they don't have the exact vehicle . If you can only use one or two tanks in a game , why buy a vehicle for every theater and time . A Panzer IV  D will work for early war Poland as well as Afrika  even if you leave it Panzer grey , its not exact but it looks the part . And I don't think 28mm model builders are going to want to build every mark and sub mark of tank like the 1/35 guys do , I'm sure a few of us might but the majority , probably not . Rubicon have to judge the market as to what they can get a good return on and what might not sell so they end up  loosing  money . I think a D will sell like hot cakes , the A - C versions , not so much .

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #321 on: May 29, 2018, 12:28:50 am »
I am very happy with the D & E kit.  The D served in France, and being an early war gamer, that makes me happy.  Will I sub it for the C in Poland?  Sure.  Will I consider getting a second kit (once I have the first kit in hand) and making my own changes, to produce my own C as best as possible?  Absolutely.

If Rubicon share a bit more of their plans for the C, I might hold off on getting another D and making my own changes.

While I certainly don't "need" to have every variant, I like models that come close to what they represent.  If for no other reason that the paint job, I would like one Pz IV for Poland, one for France, and very likely a third for North Africa (have not begun a German force for NA ... but I know it is on the horizon).  Could these three tanks all be the same kit, just painted differently?  Sure.

Decisions will get made when I have one kit in hand, and can really scope out what changes I would need to make to turn a D into a reasonable looking C.

Tracks

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #322 on: May 29, 2018, 03:45:59 am »
Tracks. I'm sure you are wrong about Poland. I don't think games are much of a reference source.

Confirmed. The D did not invade Poland in 1939.

That is the problem when writing a response to a post without double checking the details.

That being said, if someone did not have a Panzer IV Ausf A or B and wanted to proxy this with an Ausf D, I would not have a problem since it still looks the part. To quote EWG,
Quote
I am very happy with the D & E kit.  The D served in France, and being an early war gamer, that makes me happy.  Will I sub it for the C in Poland?  Sure.  Will I consider getting a second kit (once I have the first kit in hand) and making my own changes, to produce my own C as best as possible?  Absolutely.

How hard could it be to modify the Panzer IV D/E kit into something earlier like a Panzer IV A, B, or C.

ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #323 on: May 29, 2018, 05:31:28 am »
Its lots of little things to remove / replace . Less armored covers on vision ports , different style drivers visor IRC , front hatches on the nose had different hinges and IRC might not be inset in nose like later models , no slats on engine deck, tools might be rearranged , etc etc . Like I said lots of little things , that in this scale only a  rivet counter would give you grief on .  . Just give it a flat drivers front plate with a vision port mo bow gun  and, no turret box , looks like a C to me ;D

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #324 on: May 29, 2018, 05:41:47 am »
As Rubicon have plans for a C I will be waiting. I'm sure they will provide something far better than I can with my skill level.

Plenty of other models to make while I'm waiting.

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #325 on: May 29, 2018, 05:56:12 am »
Quote
How hard could it be to modify the Panzer IV D/E kit into something earlier like a Panzer IV A, B, or C.

The Pz IV B and C are very similar beasts. If you had a kit for one, you just about have a kit for the other.
  -  Same hull, from the treads to the track guards.  Nearly identical placement of tools and spares on the guards as well.  Same turret (except the coaxial MG has an armored sleeve surrounding the barrel on the C model). Same driver and radio operator hatches (they line up, because both models have a straight front armor panel). Nearly identical rear deck (the locking mechanism on the deck hatches was modified from round on the B, to rectangle on the C).

And the "cool bit" is that only 42 Bs were made. The first 5 used the A hull, and the last 30 used the C hull.  So really, only 7 B models were built using the B hull.  So if you had a C model kit, and replaced the shrouded coaxial MG sleeve with a regular coaxial barrel, you would have 30 of the 42 B models!

Production of the B ran May to October 1938. A feature of later models that was added retr0-fitting was the welded rain guard over the driver vision portal. That started in Spring of 1939.  The C model was built October 1938 to October 1939, and here, too, they started retro-fitting that welded rain guard to earlier produced models in Spring 1939.

So even that subtle difference between a B and C (when first built) is gone by Spring 1939, when earlier models were retro-fitted with the rain guard.

The D model has the angled front plate, which changes the upper deck hatch placement.  So there would be work there, changing the right-front portion of the superstructure, cutting and then moving forward the radio oerator side so the hatches line up as in the B and C models. I think re-working the front plate to make a flat plate would be easy.

But placement of tools and such on the track guards changed, and you pretty much just have to live with what comes molded on whatever kit you use. No way are you filing down axes and spanners and pry bars, and then modelling them elsewhere. So your B/C would have tool placement of the D.  There are differences regarding the side hull and turret hatches. And the sides of the rear deck are a bit different. Do you fiddle with those bits? Or is changing the front hull to have a flat front plate, lined up hatches, and no MG enough of a visual change to call it good?

The Pz IV A is rather a different beast. The superstructure was wider, coming out to the edge of the track guards, so there is work there making it narrower.  The good news is, taking a D and making an A means you already have the angled front plate. The bad news is, the hatches are different.  And there are hull and turret hatch differences as well.

I think making an A model from a D would be a lot more work than making a B/C from a D. And you will need to compromise on a lot more things that should be different (like tool placement on track guards) that would be hard to make different.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:43:14 am by EarlyWarGamer »

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #326 on: May 29, 2018, 07:28:34 am »
EWG I found your info on Ausf B particularly interesting. I think I read something similar on a website but can't remember what it was. Can you share your source?

Being a perverse so and so I quite like the idea of including a B among the C's.

Only one small correction. My info suggests the last C was built immediately before the war in August.


ripley

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #327 on: May 29, 2018, 07:35:52 am »
None of the Panzer IVs A - J had the radio ops hatch in line with the drivers , all were set back. Check the over head scale  drawings in Squadron/ Signal  Panzer IV .  ( really a great book for the casual builder at a low $15 - $ 20 price tag ) So thats one fix you don't have to worry about . The turret gun internal style gun mount and the 2nd version of the commanders cupola might be another story ,

EarlyWarGamer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #328 on: May 29, 2018, 10:10:09 am »
Quote
EWG I found your info on Ausf B particularly interesting. ... Can you share your source?

Only one small correction. My info suggests the last C was built immediately before the war in August.

Source: Panzer Tracts #4 Panzerkampfwagon IV (T. Jentz & H. Doyle), Page 20. paragraph 5 (of six on that page):

"The 42 Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.B were completed and accepted from May to October 1938. Major changes that occurred during production included completing five of the first 12 Ausf.B with Ausf.A armor hulls and the last 30 Ausf.B with Ausf.C armor hulls, and adding an N.K.A.V. (smoke candle discharge rack) in July 1938."

The next paragraph goes on to cover modifications that were backfitted. For example, the smoke discharger was added to production in July 1938. Since production started in May, that means whatever Ausf Bs were produced in May, June and perhaps some of July did not have the smoke dischargers. Paragraph 6 says that starting in August, earlier versions of the Ausf B were backfitted with those smoke dischargers.

And while the initial Ausf B design did not have a rain guard over the drivers visor, this was welded on to Ausf B models starting in the Spring of 1939.

Whereas tail lights were not part of the initial design, and those were added starting in Spring 1940.  So for Poland, there would be no tail lights, but for France, there could be.

Anyway, the few Panzer Tracts I have are pure gold for this sort of detail.

And my bad regarding the C production dates. I have 134 built between October 1938 to August 1939.  Another fun tidbit from Jentz, there was an order for 140 Cs and 140 were actually built. But ... six of the hulls built in June 1939 were set aside for conversion into bridge layers.

tyroflyer

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Re: The Panzer IV Digital Library - Wire-Mesh Skirts 180429
« Reply #329 on: May 29, 2018, 10:14:07 am »
Thank you sir!